Is General Grievous gonna be the next Darth Maul?

Agreed that Maul was wasted with short screen time, but I doubt he was the kind of man to hold meetings like Dooku did in AOTC, or negotiate between Separatist leaders to create an alliance. He would have lopped someone's head off if he wasn't getting his way. Dooku was definitely shown in AOTC to be someone who uses his head as his first weapon, then his saber.

 

My point is that it's lame to have a Sith for the purposes of "negotiating" and other diplomatic garbage.

Why couldn't the Emperor just use a regular human to do that while Maul did the killing? Why couldn't we have a Tarkin type character who handles the leading, negotiating, etc.?

The "Dooku needed to lead the separatists" argument holds no water. It could have been the same as Tarkin/Vader relationship in ANH. Tarkin handles leading the army, but Vader's the real villain.

It would have been fine to even just use Chrisopher Lee as a general type character and have Maul be there to report back to Sidious.

Again, GL did the SAME THING with Vader/Tarkin, and could have done it with Maul. He flat out dropped the ball on a potentially awesome character.

 

All of the Sith represent different types of villains. Maul is a ruthless warrior, Dooku a gentlemanly swordsman of culture, Palpatine a master strategist, and Vader is a bully with a bad temper who is a little bit of all of them.

Grevious represents the machine-side of Vader?

 

Dooko really didn't have the much screentime in AotC'S either. Also, at least Maul got his mug on a poster, GG or Dooko did not.

I didn't like Dooko before but now I do, just because the actor (just forgot his name for some reason) does an excellent job. Very smooth.

 

Actually, I bought a poster of the Sith a couple of years ago for my brothers that does have Dooku on it, along with Palpatine, Maul, and Vader.

 

Oh, I meant the Theatrical and teaser posters.
I believe the only villian on AotC's beautiful poster was Jango Fett (who I liken to GG as a side villian).

 

Well I don't think there's much doubt that Dooku isn't nearly as popular to the general audience as Maul was. Maul was just a great villain who not only looked crazy, but had an awesome new style...the double saber.

If Lucas had handled Maul like he should have, Maul would have been the prequel's version of Vader. Instead, he killed him off and he was wasted as a flash in the pan.

I'm not a GL hater by any means, and I'm more inclined to like new stuff that comes out (like the TV shows) than not. But of all the things that GL has messed up on in the last several years, the horrible mis-handling of Maul is the most egregious to me. People love villains...and cool villains are hard to come by. Too bad a potentially great one was wasted.

 

I liked that Dooku was normal looking. Look at the crazy looking ones: Vader, Maul and the Emperor. Dooku looked distinguished which made him using Force lightning all that much sweeter and taking down Obi Wan and Anakin - two of the most powerful Jedi.

I would say beating a well-trained ObiWan and powerful Anakin AND fighting Yoda to a draw is tougher than beating Qui Gon & losing to Obi Wan.

Conclusion: Maul is weak. Yeah he does cool flips but he lost. Yoda would have cut Maul in THREE parts.

 

^ yeah I agree. The fact is Maul died to a padawan but Dooku survived facing the chosen one, an accomplished jedi knight and Yoda!

Well I don't think there's much doubt that Dooku isn't nearly as popular to the general audience as Maul was.

Umm where?s the evidence for this? Just because Dooku fans aren?t as vocal doesn?t mean they?re not out there.

If Lucas had handled Maul like he should have, Maul would have been the prequel's version of Vader. Instead, he killed him off and he was wasted as a flash in the pan.

Well considering there is a PT version of Vader i.e. Anakin, there isn?t need for another Vader type character.

Regarding GG, I don?t think there?s time for much character development considering all the stuff in ROTS. From what I gather he?ll be a comic relief that looks cool but ends up like Maul. Though I guess there?s a slight possibility he doesn?t die and ends up in the TV series.

 

Maul was a punk. He died like a punk.

He was a disposable, one-dimensional villain that served his purpose for TPM.

Because it was George Lucas, he was extremely cool-looking with a cool name and a double-bladed lightsaber.

 

how can you be so tough on the guy...he's in your name!!

Let's be real though...people act like Dooku is some profound, sophisticated character with all this intrigue and interest surrounding him. In actuality, his character is just as shallow as Maul and not nearly as cool. He was just thrown onto us with no background and no reason for us to care. He's an old Jedi who went bad and is now a puppet for Sidious. That's fine...but if you're going to be a puppet, at least look cool.

The thing that GL is BEST at is making things visually stunning. That's why Star Wars is so great despite bad dialogue and plot holes the size of the Death Star. It's that bottom line, when the film roles, we're all awe-struck. That's what I ask of GL. I don't ask for great writing because he doesn't deliver that. I ask for great visual effects and he usually delivers. Maul was that. Dooku isn't.

 

In actuality, his character is just as shallow as Maul and not nearly as cool.

You do realize that a duel between Maul and Dooku would have ended in about fifteen seconds, with Maul in worse shape than he was at the end of TPM, right?

!snap

 

What does that have to do with anything?

You act like these are actual people. These are characters that GL made up in his mind. He could have made Maul and Dooku as strong as he wanted. Sure he made Dooku stronger...and? How does that prove any kind of point?

The point is that he should never have even bothered with an uninspiring character in Dooku and simply elaborated on the excellent character he already had in Maul.

In fact, the very fact that Maul dies quickly and we're force-fed (no pun intended) Dooku out of nowhere proves my point. Cool or not, GL successfully trivialized BOTH characters by doing that. Instead of giving one character some depth and giving audiences a reason to really care about him, he gave us two that really don't have a whole lot of depth to either.

Again, bottom line, Maul was a great character with a lot of potential, and GL squandered it. Your point of their relative power has little relevance to the debate.

 

What I get from this thread is character doesn't matter. All you need to do is look cool and have a gimmick. That's Dooku's only fault. No schtick. He has character, charisma, developement (a little anyway), and an in-movie backstory.
Maul had a red face and a double saber. And fans (who claim to be quite sophisticated) love Maul because of that Cause I mean... what else did he do? All the Jedi fight fast.
Iconery is a movie character's greatest strength. If you want your character's to be remembered, you have to give them an instantly recognizable look that could only come from that movie.
That's why Vader became so poopular. He was a mass muddle of recognizable schticks. Mask, breathing, red saber, deep voice, and in ANH - that choke thing. It's hard to imagine everyone fell in love with him because of his deep penetrating character
The best example of this is Boba Fett. Didn't do a damn thing to write home about, but his armor and voice were cool. Chara-what-now?
That was Jango's only real failing. He did more than Boba ever dreamed of, but his design and look wasn't original enough for fans. They already had an action figure like that
What does Dooku have? He looks like a typical old man, Palpatine already claimed lightning, and everybody's used to red sabers by now. What separates him is what he *gasp* actually does, and people want what he does to be appointed to someone who looks cool! [face_laughing]
Now we have Grievous who harkens back to the schtick idea. In fact, that's why so many fans are in a hissy fit over him. 'What!? Cyborg! But but but, that's Vader's thing! Ohhh no! Well I won't have that! I hate Grievous!'
It even seems to bleed into the EU. Blue skin, red eyes? I schtick I can remember! I love him!
I'd say my analysis is fairly accurate

 

You guys need to remember that Lucas wanted Dooku to be a very powerful Jedi turned Sith. He wasn't meant to be a Maul, or GG. He was meant to be the bad version of Ben Kenobi from ANH. He was supposed to old, powerful and with a sense of charisma. You don't get that with Maul.

 

I'd say my analysis is fairly accurate

I'd say it's partly accurate. Of course the visual is important. To pretend like it isn't means you have no idea what GL himself is trying to achieve. He's been all about visual since day 1. That's why the Empire in the OT is so cold and colorless, while the rebellion is full of earthtones. GL tells his story visually, hence his point that you could watch SW without sound and still understand and appreciate it.

But again, you act like Dooku has some serious depth to his character. He doesn't. He was tossed into the story, and we have little reason to really care. He does just as much as Maul did, which is really nothing, and he's not nearly as cool. If GL had never had Maul to begin with, and given us to learn and know Dooku, it would still be better. Like I said, instead of one character with some depth, GL gave us two without. But at least Maul had it half right cause he was cool.

If Vader had been there in ANH and just gotten killed by Obi-Wan in the Death Star, he would never have become the icon he is today. Instead, we got to learn about the man behind the "cool" look, and it made him an icon. GL had a chance to achieve something similar in Maul, and fell short. And in Dooku, he's not even close.

 

No, no, no!! With Garth Maul, I agree. Maul was just a cartoon who could jump and fight. Dooku was a character. If you can't look pass the coolness of a character and only focuss on appearance, that's your choice. I mean, I can't stand when literature or critics say SW has no substance compare the boring movie or book of the year. Star Wars is great and I love it, but it's for the kid in us. But please, at least, have the courage of your opinions and stop pretending like Maul was a better character than Dooku. He was not. He had better moves? Of course, he's a stunman and Dooku is a grandfather. But Dooku's character brought a lot more to the story than Maul ever could. Maul's dialogue was weaker than Dooku's mobility.

 

saying Maul couldn't do what Dooku did is asuming the sith plan would have stayed the same had Maul lived.
perhaps it wasn't until Sidious took on Dooku that they decided to take the approach they did.
think about it, Maul was supposed to make the Queen sign a treaty with the trade federation & that never happened. who knows how things would have played out had they done that.

 

But again, you act like Dooku has some serious depth to his character. He doesn't.

Twice as much as Maul and Boba Fett (back in the day)

Based purely on the movies:

Maul: Sith Apprentice. Hates the Jedi... Ummm visited a tatoo parlor once? Is a man of few words and is angry?

Boba: A bounty hunter. And... well basically just a bounty hunter. A man of few words. Of even fewer actions

Dooku: Former Jedi disatisfied with the Jedi Order and Republic. Master to Qui-Gon and Padawan to Yoda. Fell to the darkside and joined Darth Sideous in his schemes. Hired Jango Fett as the clone template. Under orders of Sideous, gathered a sizeable force to separate from the Republic and wage war. A diplomat, and charismatic. Seems conflicted.

All from the movies. So you can't say he's as empty/pointless as Maul.

 

Nice Rascally Droid...

The best example of this is Boba Fett. Didn't do a damn thing to write home about, but his armor and voice were cool. Chara-what-now?

FETT vs MAUL vs DOOKU

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What made us know Boba was REALLY cool was when Vader had to point the finger at Fett and warn him: "No disintegration." That little line said a lot about his character.

Emperor never gave any cool instructions like that to Maul.

Dooku's discussion with Obi-Wan about the Sith and Qui-Gon was brilliant in attempting to stir emotion from both Obi-Wan and the audience about his true motives.

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We know Fett was somewhat smart when he told Vader Han was worth a lot to him "alive" prior to freezing.

Maul never demonstrated any smart decisions from my perspective.

Dooku orchestrated the battle against the Jedi in the Arena. He had them beat until the clonetroopers arrived. So not only did Dooku beat Anakin & Obi Wan in a duel AND fight Yoda to a draw; he had an entire group of Jedi, including Mace, ready to be executed.

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WHY didn't Lucas introduce Dooku in TPM? He may not have been thought up then. But let's look at characters introduced in the Star Wars Saga outside of Ep IV & I.

Boba Fett
Lando Calrissian
Dooku
Grevious
Ewoks
Yoda (EP V)
Emperor (EP V)

Let's look at guys punked out after one episode:
Greedo
Darth Maul
General Grevious
Qui Gon
Jar Jar (we wish)
Grand Moff Tarkin (yes he's in EPIII, but in reality he got punked in 1 episode and I've never heard people crying for him to have survived to EP V)

The point of the list? None, it was just fun. No seriously, don't be blastin' Lucas for adding new characters not mentioned in IV or I. He needs to add new heros and villans in every movie.




DAUL MAUL LOVER CHALLENGE: Name a character from another movie that has zero dialogue (or nearly zero) and is "cool like Maul".

 

Jabba the Hutt.

Imperial Red Guards?

 

Hutt was intoroduced in IV through Greedo in the original version.

 

Okay, IG-88. He has NO dialogue whatsoever.

Wyrm - I know my user name riffs on Darth Maul, and I really enjoy his character for what it is.

And I think you're right, Lucas probably could have done more with him if he was in AOTC.

But not to the level of Vader. I'm sorry, that's just not possible. Besides all the physical attributes of Vader that made him an awesome villain, it was his personal story and obsession with Luke and the Force that made him so compelling.

He seems fearsome in ANH, but gets REALLY interesting when he meets Kenobi on the Death Star. Then his quest to turn Luke in ESB really starts to define his character.

Maul was a pure Sith, pure evil, pure badass.

I think he served his purpose admirably, all the more so because so many people were ticked off that he died.

*********

And I also agree that much of what we like about Dooku's character is that we are hardcore SW fans, so we know all there is to know about him.

But Dooku is different than every other SW villain. He's distinguished, very cultured and dignified - yet so arrogant and obsessed with power.

One thing I really liked about his fight with Yoda was how Dooku so clearly wanted to prove his superiority to Yoda, and Yoda just wasn't having it.

I don't believe Dooku ever went all the way to becoming pure evil, not like Sidious or Maul. Yes, he was incredibly powerful, but not as pure evil. That's just me though.


********

Anyway, I think the purpose of having all of these different types of villains is to give us a better insight into Vader's character.

Vader is part Maul, part Dooku, part Sidious, part Obi-Wan Kenobi, and part Anakin Skywalker. And physically similar to Grievous.

Going back to the original point of this thread, Grievous is another disposable villain, but he shows the machine/man melding like Darth Vader. The fact that he uses lightsabers shows that the Jedi maybe aren't quite as all-powerful as they used to be.

 

That's a great breakdown Garth. I'm not saying he could have been on the level of Vader, but I'm saying that he could have been the PT Vader...the villian that defines the trilogy.

I COMPLETELY AGREE with you that what makes Vader interesting is what we learn about him later. That totally supports my point though that GL could have given Maul more depth, making him a better character overall. I just hate how he took a potentially awesome character and just did nothing with him. The creativity involved in coming up with a "cool" character like Maul is considerable, and you don't get cool villians all the time. So when you have one, it's just a shame when you do nothing with him.

As for Grievous, I actually think GL just made the same mistake...AGAIN. Yet another villian who looks pretty cool, but who he just threw on us with no real depth. At least with Grievous we have the Clone Wars tv show to add some depth to the character. But the regular fan who doesn't watch everything Star Wars is going to be like "where the heck did this guy come from?"

Lucas has so many amazing ideas in his head...he just has a hard time presenting some things in a way that would really get the audience to care. I think it's too bad cause Grievous could have also been a really great character if GL had given him any depth and he was presented in a way to make fans actually care.

 

hey have you seen the movie yet? cause if not, then how can you say lucas messed up and gave us another worthless villan? i know that many critics are saying that hes basically just eye candy, but there are those who are also talking about how absolutely cool he is. so how about you hold off on the criticisms until youve seen the darn thing.

(apologies if you actually have somehow seen the movie already).