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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Is George Lucas anti Women - your opinion please?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by darth_snook, Dec 22, 2004.

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  1. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000
    "Uh, just as a note, Jedi are not celibate. That's straight from Lucas himself. :) They are merely forbidden to marry and are strongly advised against deep attachments to others because of the emotional dangers."

    That kind of contradicts with the "Jedi are not celibate" idea because if a Jedi has sex with someone, it will affect the other person emotionally because then they would want a relationship with the Jedi they had sex with. In order for the Jedi to NOT be attached to anyone is by NOT meeting anyone nor to have sex with anyone which means they have to be celibate.
     
  2. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2000
    Well, Lucas should know, so obviously, they are not celibate. Perhaps Jedi have sex with eachother?

    Anyway, no, GL is not anti women. If anything, he is pro women. Pro both sexes.



    Star Wars is one
    /LM
     
  3. mojorising

    mojorising Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 9, 2005
    Why would someone even start this thread... that's like asking if... oh nevermind.
     
  4. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000
    "Well, Lucas should know so obviously, they are not celibate."

    Then why is Anakin the only Jedi that had sex and is getting in trouble for it? The other Jedi are too devoted to the Force to even think about sex.
     
  5. Chaotic_Serenity

    Chaotic_Serenity Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2004
    No, Anakin is the only Jedi we've seen fall in love and get *married.* Big difference between just having sex and forming a life bond with a partner. It's not the sex that's the problem - it's the emotional attachment the Jedi are worried about. Jedi are not monks/nuns/priests/etc., and I never understand why people are associating the society with such a lifestyle. They're just normal people underneath all the spiritual and physical power with normal, "human" needs.

    Oh, and you do not need an emotional connection with someone to have sex with them. That is a big, fat, ugly truth that I wish people would finally accept.
     
  6. NeoBaggins

    NeoBaggins Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2003
    Leia : Princess, Rebel fighter, respected Leader.

    Padme : Queen of Naboo, Leader and fighter, Senator.

    Mon Mothma : Military strategist, Leader and Fighter.

    Beru : Level-headed and understands Lukes frustrations.

    Corde : Body Gaurd. Died being a decoy for Padme.

    The women are also pilots in the wars and there are several female members on the Jedi council.

    Lucas is probably not an anti-women kinda guy. He even has daughters.



     
  7. StarSmuggler

    StarSmuggler Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2004
    Don't forget Marion Ravenwood!
     
  8. rohandove

    rohandove Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2004
    Padme, Adi Gallia, Mon Mothma, Princess Leia, Beru, Aayla Secura, Shmi...


    No, he's not anti women.

    And I believe that Obi-Wan's comment to Anakin had more to do with Zam being a changeling, not that she was female.
     
  9. rohandove

    rohandove Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2004
    Then why is Anakin the only Jedi that had sex and is getting in trouble for it? The other Jedi are too devoted to the Force to even think about sex.


    PMT, I don't believe it was because he had sex, it's because Anakin and Padme were married. It's against the code. Lucas has said the Jedi aren't forbidden to have sex, they just can't become attached to their partners. It puts both of them, and any family they would have, in danger and splits their focus.
     
  10. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000
    Chaotic Serenity-"No, Anakin is the only Jedi we've seen fall in love and get *married*. Big difference between just having sex and forming a life bond with a partner."

    You got to be kidding me! Sex happens as a result of forming a bond with someone of the opposite sex. There is no difference.

    "It's not the sex that's the problem - it's the emotional attachment the Jedi are worried about. Jedi are not monks/nuns/priests/etc., and I never understand why people are associating the society with such a lifestyle. They're just normal people underneath all the spiritual and physical power with normal, "human" needs."

    Then why do the Jedi take babies away from their parents and raise them to NOT have needs? Emotions are normal human needs because we would want to express ourselves through them but the Jedi have rules that state that they can't show emotion such as:

    There is no emotion, there is peace.
    There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
    There is no passion, there is serenity.
    There is no death, there is the Force.

    Sex is a very passionate obstacle but even that can be outlawed by the Jedi Council due to its association with passion which is why the Jedi are like priests/monks/nuns/etc. and why they are forced to be celibate.

    "Oh, and you do not need an emotional connection with someone to have sex with them. That is a big, fat, ugly truth that I wish people would finally accept."

    It's that notion of the "truth" that is the reason why so many relationships fall apart because we end up hurting our boy/girlfriends by going around sleeping with other people.
     
  11. StarSmuggler

    StarSmuggler Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2004
    ^ I agree. What I don't understand is why the jedi council thinks that denying someone the love and care of another person is going to make them more focused on their study of the Force. Denying the jedi children love and true friendship (that involves attatchment) seems like inviting them to rebel and break any rule the council tries to enforce on them. Unless the jedi council is Vulcan, denying them love and emotion seems unfair and unrealistic. However, this doesn't have to do with being anti-women. I think GL is jsut making rules for the council and these rules apply to males and females; female jedi children are also denied love, which shows us that the rule doesn't suggest that the love of a woman is a jedi's undoing, but love in general.
     
  12. BrotherTheFirst

    BrotherTheFirst Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2005
    I think Anakin being overcome, engulfed in his own jealousy & anger at Padme is a sign of weakness within. A character flaw that is present without any outside influence. Not a woman?s presence.

    In short. I think Anakin would have turned to the darkside Padme or not. I think bad weather would have thrown this guy off.
     
  13. MvTrlrMsc

    MvTrlrMsc Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2005
  14. Juke Skywalker

    Juke Skywalker Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 27, 2004
    I certainly don't detect it, though it would be
    hard to blame the guy.. his wife did cheat on him
    with a younger man.
     
  15. Chaotic_Serenity

    Chaotic_Serenity Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2004
    You got to be kidding me! Sex happens as a result of forming a bond with someone of the opposite sex. There is no difference.

    What?! Sex is sex. For some people, it is an emotional experience, but it's otherwise a biological function that people enjoy for pleasure alone. Haven't you ever heard of one night stands, "friends with benefits," sexual favors, prostitution, etc, etc.?


    Then why do the Jedi take babies away from their parents and raise them to NOT have needs? Emotions are normal human needs because we would want to express ourselves through them but the Jedi have rules that state that they can't show emotion such as:

    That is a very good point, and likely a reason why the Jedi system seems to collapse in on itself...with the help of a Sith Lord, sure. The problem with the Jedi was that they had normal needs, but tried to place themselves on a emotional pedastal above others. Being one with the Force should require the user to understand the transcendence of the body and physical attachments, but it shouldn't be a completely displacement of emotional intercourse. Just because someone *says* that they are above everything doesn't mean that they are.


    Sex is a very passionate obstacle but even that can be outlawed by the Jedi Council due to its association with passion which is why the Jedi are like priests/monks/nuns/etc. and why they are forced to be celibate.

    Sex can be just as dispassionate, a casual screw on an afternoon. Some people may avoid it because they attach that secondary sexual meaning, but not all Jedi will.

    And for the last time, they are not celibate. George Lucas himself said flat out in an interview as such.

    Here's the quote:

    "Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships."

    And here's a link to the article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/1989505.stm



    It's that notion of the "truth" that is the reason why so many relationships fall apart because we end up hurting our boy/girlfriends by going around sleeping with other people.

    That doesn't disprove my point. In fact, the skirts the edges of the issue since you're referring to relationships that involve emotional attachment on a level other than physical, which the Jedi are forbidden to have. I am simply recognizing that not everyone emotionally aligns themselves to sexual activity the way someone like myself might. And I have no idea why anyone would think it isn't possible. Anakin's relationship with Padme is forbidden because it's not only a violation of the no marriage role, but it is an excessively possessive one as well due to his inherent emotional instabilities.
     
  16. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000
    "And for the last time, they are not celibate. George Lucas said flat out in an interview as such.

    Here's the quote:

    "Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships."

    George also said that he always wanted Greedo to shoot first but that never happened when Star Wars(ANH) came out in '77 because it was Han that shot first. He also said that he planned for Darth Vader to be Luke's father but that idea was never brought up in ANH because George never had any sequals(nor prequals) in mind at the time due to his concerns that the film would be a failure.

    George says a lot of things but he always changes his mind alot which is why not many people believe him.
     
  17. Chaotic_Serenity

    Chaotic_Serenity Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Oct 10, 2004
    George also said that he always wanted Greedo to shoot first but that never happened when Star Wars(ANH) came out in '77 because it was Han that shot first. He also said that he planned for Darth Vader to be Luke's father but that idea was never brought up in ANH because George never had any sequals(nor prequals) in mind at the time due to his concerns that the film would be a failure.


    How the heck does that apply?

    How do you know Greedo wasn't meant to shoot first? Do you live inside Lucas' head? Lucas claimed it was an editing error that he fixed in the SE releases. Whether or not you agree with his argument is not applicable to the situation at hand. He says that's the way it was meant to be, and then he "fixed" it in the latest editions. Whether or not you like it, he's made it canon. This being said, if I hear this change brought up once more in an attempt to detract from Lucas' credibility, I am going to immediately consider that argument invalid.

    And the second argument...it doesn't even apply to what we're talking about. There is no mention of Vader being Luke's father in ANH because there simply is no part of the plot in which it would be rational on a dramatic level to do so. If you don't know if a movie is going to be a hit, you surely don't open a thread as massive as a father/son relationship of such extremity only to have it never closed. That's why Vader and Luke's obsessive conflicted relationship with each other dominates the actions of the characters in ESB and ROTJ. Besides that, they don't even interact but indirectly in ANH. Just when did you expect such a revelation to be made? Vader almost killed his own son without even knowing it in the trench run. Luke thinks his father was killed by Vader. There's no point where either knows the truth at that point in the saga. What we do get is a farce of a story from Obi Wan, with great acting direction on Guiness' and Brown's parts where you realize that there's likely more to the story than Obi Wan is letting on. And that's all you need to know at that point.


    George says a lot of things but he always changes his mind alot which is why not many people believe him.

    No, George Lucas says alot of things that his fans don't want to agree with, so they go off and make up their own ideas and try to pass it off as canon.

    Quite honestly, your argument is ridiculous. Jedi are not celibate. Period, end of story. Anything that says they are is completely the work of a fan's imagination.
     
  18. doubleOjedi

    doubleOjedi Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Well I'm not going to read through all the replies, so sorry if I repeat anyone, but It's my opinion that Lucas portrays the women as stronger characters than the men. At least in the Skywalker family.
     
  19. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000
    "How the heck does that apply?"

    Everything George has said contradicts with what he has done back in the 70's because he did not do the stuff that he, and I quote, "planned to make happen".

    "How do you know Greedo wasn't meant to shoot first?

    How do you know that he was? If George wanted the audience to believe that Greedo shot first, he could've done a better job of filming the shootout scene instead of waiting 20 years to do so.

    "Whether or not you like it, he's made it canon. This being said, if I hear this change brought up once more in an attempt to detract from Lucas' credibility, I am going to immediately consider that argument invalid."

    Your just saying that because you don't want to continue this argument knowing that deep down, even you might find Lucas' credibility questionable. Besides, I don't have to mention the "Greedo shooting first" scene to question Lucas' direction because there are some other topics I could use such as the issue with Leia being Luke's sister and his reasons for killing off Obi-wan.

    "And the second argument...it doesn't even apply to what we're talking about."

    Yes, it does because it is on the list of "made at the last minute" scenes such as Greedo shooting first, Leia being Luke's sister, etc.

    "If you don't know if a movie is going to be a hit, you surely don't open a thread as massive as a father/son relationship of such extremity only to have it never closed."

    It's still no excuse for this subplot to be created in the first place because if ANH was indeed a failure, then there wouldn't be an ESB, ROTJ, nor a prequal trilogy and a lot of shows such as VH-1's "When Star Wars ruled the world" to Empire of Dreams alludes to this fact.

    "No, George Lucas says alot of things that his fans don't want to agree with, so they go off and make up their own ideas and try to pass it off as canon."

    It's not just because the fans don't agree with it, it's also because Lucas says one thing and does another years later and those actions are making him out to be a hypocrite.

    "Quite honestly, your argument is ridiculous. Jedi are not celibate. Period, end of story."

    Then why is Anakin the only Jedi we see getting some nookie? How come we don't see Obi-wan, Yoda, or any other Jedi doing what Anakin has done with Padme? We see the Jedi traveling across galaxies fighting crooked politicians, bounty hunters, battledroids, and Sith Lords but not once do we see them settling down doing the nasty with anyone and the fact that they've been sheltered inside their ivory tower for thousands of years without any contact from the outside world is what makes them celibate.

    End of discussion!
     
  20. Vongchild

    Vongchild Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 2, 2004
    The female characters in the Saga are, for the most part, what I would call "Good Role Models". Padme was taking down battle droids at the battle of Naboo and taking out monsters on Geonosis. Leia is the brains behind a rebellion, heads up the galaxy afterwards, and has a pretty good shot with a blaster. Both dress very modestly (for the most part) and need I remind you who killed Jabba the Hutt?
     
  21. Chaotic_Serenity

    Chaotic_Serenity Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2004
    Everything George has said contradicts with what he has done back in the 70's because he did not do the stuff that he, and I quote, "planned to make happen".

    Oh, bull. There has been twenty of years of change regarding the movies. That's twenty years for him to notice things he wanted to fix, twenty years for technology improve to the point where he can add things. The prequels weren't written because he didn't have the ability, at the time, to make them. Had he not been able to, he eventually planned to have them released in book form. The idea was there all along, it just hadn't been worked out to the smaller details. Nothing he has said has "contradicted" the principles of what has been done. He made small edits to ESB and ROTJ to better fit the continuity, and that is all. The films could still have easily worked without them, but he has to keep in mind that future generations won't be watching these films in retrospect like we are.



    How do you know that he was? If George wanted the audience to believe that Greedo shot first, he could've done a better job of filming the shootout scene instead of waiting 20 years to do so.

    Because he said so, and I see no reason to point a finger at him and call him a liar? Lucas is a pretty straightforward guy. There are millions of reasons why Lucas may not done it then, the least of which being the time constraints and difficulties they ran into while filming the production. I am tired of Star Wars fans trying to use this to undermine Lucas' efforts just because they don't agree with him. Whether or not his expressed explaination for that change is questionable is for the fans to decide, and if it does, it applies only to that scen. One change does not undermine the credibility of man as a whole. This still would have no application to a comment he made during an interview regarding Jedi celibacy. The cantina sequence was a change he made after twenty years of reflecting on the films and getting a chance to go back. The comment on the lack of celibacy was him explaining something in an interview which he felt fans confused.



    Your just saying that because you don't want to continue this argument knowing that deep down, even you might find Lucas' credibility questionable.

    No, I'm tired of this argument because I hate arguing with self-righteous ****ers who try to make themselves out to be superior to Lucas' own knowledge of his own films.



    Besides, I don't have to mention the "Greedo shooting first" scene to question Lucas' direction because there are some other topics I could use such as the issue with Leia being Luke's sister and his reasons for killing off Obi-wan.


    Yes, it does because it is on the list of "made at the last minute" scenes such as Greedo shooting first, Leia being Luke's sister, etc.


    That still doesn't explain to me how the hell this applies to George Lucas explaining in an interview that Jedi are not celibate. These are all changes that were made after movies were done in order to wrap up plot ends, make continuity flow better, etc, etc. Scripts are bound to change in the course of a film. They were all made as film-making decisions. His comment in an interview is him clarifying a point in his movie that he felt fans misunderstood. There is a distinct difference between the two of them.


    It's still no excuse for this subplot to be created in the first place because if ANH was indeed a failure, then there wouldn't be an ESB, ROTJ, nor a prequal trilogy and a lot of shows such as VH-1's "When Star Wars ruled the world" to Empire of Dreams alludes to this fact.

    And your point is? The father/son plot wasn't created because the neither the story or the script called for it at that point. There were suggestions made in dialogue that *later* fans recognized as pertaining to the issue of what happened to Anakin, but in the course of ANH, the audience just overlooks it.



    It's not just because the fans don't agree with it, it's also because Lucas says one thing and d
     
  22. Freddy-Krueger

    Freddy-Krueger Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2005
    That kind of contradicts with the "Jedi are not celibate" idea because if a Jedi has sex with someone, it will affect the other person emotionally because then they would want a relationship with the Jedi they had sex with.

    You got to be kidding me! Sex happens as a result of forming a bond with someone of the opposite sex.

    Someone's never heard of a booty call.
     
  23. Jedi_Ford_Prefect

    Jedi_Ford_Prefect Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2003
    ...not the mention non-heterosexual relationships. This is the 21st century, guys. Let's try and keep our eyes on the ball.
     
  24. Chaotic_Serenity

    Chaotic_Serenity Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2004
    Or on the galaxy. In a universe where humans are shown to have strong relationships, some of which even border on flirtatious, with alien species, would homosexuality even be considerd an issue? [face_thinking] I can't imagine same sex relationships would be considered a bad thing over interspecies ones.
     
  25. _Sublime_Skywalker_

    _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 8, 2004
    I wouldn't go so far as to saying Lucas is anti-women,
    Keep in mind,George was once inlove too. I'd just say he holds the classic view that Men are the stronger beings and women are the smarter ones.

    Most of the men are Jedi's,there are a few women Jedi [Aayla,Bene,Darsha Assant]But all the Jedi's foccused on film are men [Qui Gon,Anakin,Obi Wan,Mace,Luke]

    The women are other things, Padme is a Senator and Leia is a princess,yet Palpataine is an Chancellor,so maybe its not all one sided.

    The love thing doesn't have so much as to be anti-women,but more pro-women. Its showing Anakin is very dependant on the women in his life [Shmi and Padme] and the love of both of them is his downfall,but only because he loses them. If Shmi never died,he would have been even happier because he would have his mother and Padme.

    I guess Im just really neutral about this.
     
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