Is Germany right to ban a couple naming their child Osama Bin Laden

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Pit Droid, Sep 6, 2002.

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  1. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    I'm curious if there are any laws like this is the United States. Could the government of the US prevent parents from giving a name that is, for example, a profanity?
  2. stevo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    star 4
    The governement has no right to stop a parent from naming their child whatever they want. If it were to happen in the U.S. I would feel that it would be a direct violation of people's rights.
  3. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Yes, they do, if it can be disruptive. Like, for example, a school environment. If someone's name was a profanity. Or Osama. Or Hitler. Or anything like that. Sometimes we need to protect children from their own parents.
  4. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    The name itself isn't what is disruptive in that situation; it's people who are so upset by names and words that are disruptive.
  5. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    People have a right to be upset in situations like this. Osama Bin Laden was reponsible for the violent deaths of over 3,000 people on 9/11 and the deaths of many other innocent people over the years. The name will be associated with him for a very long time. How could any less be true?
  6. stevo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    star 4
    What if Adolf Hitler were called . . . Chris Brown?? You can't make people not use names just because one person who posesses it is evil.
  7. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    People have a right to be upset in situations like this.

    They can be as upset as they want, but that doesn't mean they can take away the human rights of others.

    Osama Bin Laden was reponsible for the violent deaths of over 3,000 people on 9/11 and the deaths of many other innocent people over the years.

    Yeah. He's a jerk. That has nothing to do with anything.

    The name will be associated with him for a very long time. How could any less be true?

    It doesn't matter. If a couple chooses to name their child after him, they should have that right. Perhaps they approve of what he did. Right or wrong, they should have the ability to name their children whatever they should like. If the child dislikes the name, they can create a personal nickname, then legally change their name when they are of age.
  8. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    I actually would care very little if an adult decided they wanted to change their own name to Osama Bin Laden. However, we're taking about a child here. A newborn has no say in his or her name and cannot protest it. And growing up, any child with this name will bear most of the scrutiny that comes with it, not the parents who so thoughtlessly gave it to them. So I feel the parents have no right to chose the name for their child. If the father loves the name so much, he can change his own name to it.
  9. Waning Drill Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 1999
    star 5
    Could be worse. The kid could be Jewish.
  10. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    I actually would care very little if an adult decided they wanted to change their own name to Osama Bin Laden.

    Your opinions on the choice itself aren't important. We're discussing a government's right to regulate such issues.

    However, we're taking about a child here. A newborn has no say in his or her name and cannot protest it.

    Such is the case with every child. I know a hell of a lot of people who hate their names. This is nothing new. Ask my friend, Isabelle Ringing.

    And growing up, any child with this name will bear most of the scrutiny that comes with it, not the parents who so thoughtlessly gave it to them.

    Many children suffer from bad parental choices; Unless it is neglect or abuse, the government should not be involved.

    So I feel the parents have no right to chose the name for their child. If the father loves the name so much, he can change his own name to it.

    That's not the point. We aren't discussing whether or not this is a prudent move on the part of the parents; we're questioning the government's actions.
  11. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    The child himself has absolutely no link to those deaths, how could he? Any hate displayed to him is just plain ignorance, and the children should be taught such. When you tackle bullying, you don't tell the victim to stop being a nerd, stop being fat, etc.
  12. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Right or wrong, they should have the ability to name their children whatever they should like. If the child dislikes the name, they can create a personal nickname, then legally change their name when they are of age.

    And in the meantime, it's the child that suffers, NOT THE PARENTS. The child's right to have a non-offensive name should override that of the parents' to chose the child's name.
  13. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    How do you know that the child will not be raised to love his name? Perhaps, in his family, Osama is a hero. We may disagree, but that is their choice.
  14. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Many children suffer from bad parental choices; Unless it is neglect or abuse, the government should not be involved.

    I think such a name is mental abuse.

    That's not the point. We aren't discussing whether or not this is a prudent move on the part of the parents; we're questioning the government's actions.

    And I feel the government's actions are appropriate, because they protect the child. I sincerely hope the parents do not get away with chosing this name. It is against the laws of their country and no special circumstances should be made.

    Your opinions on the choice itself aren't important. We're discussing a government's right to regulate such issues.

    Well then, I suppose yours aren't, either.

    How do you know that the child will not be raised to love his name? Perhaps, in his family, Osama is a hero. We may disagree, but that is their choice.

    It's their choice to think that way, but it's not their choice to force the name on the child. Especially since, in the environment the child will be growing up in (Germany), the majority of people he encounters as a child will despise Osama.
  15. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Please show me the German law that says "It is illegal to name your child Osama bin Laden".
  16. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    From the article linked to in the first post:

    "But under German law, it is illegal for babies to be given names that could be offensive or bring ridicule.

    Naming a baby Hitler is also banned."

    It's also illegal in Turkey, where the parents were born.

    "Registration officials in Cologne rejected the name because it would not be allowed in Turkey, said a spokeswoman for the court."
  17. Kuna_Tiori Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2002
    star 4
    Tod: This kind of government interference maybe violates parents' rights but it certainly protects child's rights for normal life.

    A right to NORMAL life...now that's one I never heard before. So how come I don't get one?

    stevo: The governement has no right to stop a parent from naming their child whatever they want. If it were to happen in the U.S. I would feel that it would be a direct violation of people's rights.

    I agree.

    Yes, they do, if it can be disruptive. Like, for example, a school environment. If someone's name was a profanity. Or Osama. Or Hitler. Or anything like that. Sometimes we need to protect children from their own parents.

    There are always things called nicknames. Besides, I'm sure there were plenty of bad people named Chris or John or Ken or Rebecca. Does that mean that those names can't be used? If so, the only name left would probably be Macamucu or something.

    People have a right to be upset in situations like this. Osama Bin Laden was reponsible for the violent deaths of over 3,000 people on 9/11 and the deaths of many other innocent people over the years. The name will be associated with him for a very long time. How could any less be true?

    So what if one Rebecca Onenineone did the same? Does that mean that that name can never be used by humankind again? I think you're overreacting.

    Besides, things like names are usually things that you can't choose ANYWAYS. Bad names are part of life. My name is Kenneth; you think I liked the reception I got when South Park came out? You can change your name later anyways.

    I think that someone should ADVISE the parents to choose a different name. But no one can force them to do anything.
  18. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Who decides which names will bring ridicule?
  19. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Who decides which names will bring ridicule?

    Probably judges or other officials, based on current and past events.

    So what if one Rebecca Onenineone did the same? Does that mean that that name can never be used by humankind again? I think you're overreacting.

    Then the name Rebecca Onenineone or whatver should be dissalowed. Maybe they should allow the child to be named simply Osama. But certainly not Osama Bin Laden. I don't think it's the first name so much that's bad. Osama could be like John in Muslim countries, for all we know. I have nothing against people being allowed to name a child Adolf, it's just a name. But if they want to name their child Adolf Hitler, or Hitler, it's wrong. The name Osama on its own is a very poor choice on the child's behalf, especially since he will be living in Europe. The name Osama Bin Laden, however, is very, very clearly offensive to millions of people, and for that should be illegal. That's the name they want to give the child, the whole name, Osama Bin Laden.
  20. chibiangi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    Many children suffer from bad parental choices; Unless it is neglect or abuse, the government should not be involved.

    I think there is a strong arguement that naming your child a derogatory, demeaning, or immflamatory name consitutes abuse. We're not talking about a "cute" play on words type of name; we're talking about a name that provokes anger and hatred. Should parents be able to name their kids Adolf or Osama as a first name? Sure, because there are many other people with the same first names. However, naming your child Adolf Hitler Smith or Osama bin Laden Jones is specifying WHICH Adolf and Osama the parents used a model for their name, and THAT is what will upset people and cause grief for the child.

    In other words, if the parents had just used the name Osama, they probably would not be having any problems.
  21. Waning Drill Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 1999
    star 5
    Who decides which names will bring ridicule?


    Society at large, and the men and women whose actions in life will dictate their legacy.

    And it's also considered polite to tip.
  22. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    I think there is a strong arguement that naming your child a derogatory, demeaning, or immflamatory name consitutes abuse. We're not talking about a "cute" play on words type of name; we're talking about a name that provokes anger and hatred. Should parents be able to name their kids Adolf or Osama as a first name? Sure, because there are many other people with the same first names. However, naming your child Adolf Hitler Smith or Osama bin Laden Jones is specifying WHICH Adolf and Osama the parents used a model for their name, and THAT is what will upset people and cause grief for the child.

    In other words, if the parents had just used the name Osama, they probably would not be having any problems.


    I agree very much with this statement. You said what I was trying to say, but I don't think I quite managed.
  23. stevo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    star 4
    Parent's who name their child cannot be responsible for the stupidity of people and society who hate a person because of his name. A parent whose child ridicule's a boy or girl that shares the name of someone hated should be held responsible. Your opinion on that hated person holds no relevance and people's rights shouldn't be restricted by other people's ignorance.
  24. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    It's more than that. You just don't want to see the larger issues at hand. This could be mentally damaging to the child. Suppose this boy learns in school to hate Bin Laden. He will suffer. He will hate his parents for giving him that name. He will hate that everytime someone hears his name, they will be reminded of a terrible man and a terrible event. He may even hate himself, for causing people pain. Is this what you want? Parents can't do whatever they want with their children. They cannot abuse them. And this is a form of mental abuse.
  25. stevo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    star 4
    I'm trying to say that the point that Bin Laden is horrible holds no relevance. You cannot restrict someone's rights because of the damaging actions of others that have nothing to do with naming a child. If a parent wants to name their child Osama Bin Laden then we are nobody to contest them. You cannot claim to act in the child's best interest by destroying the people's who will nuture him rights.



    EDIT: There are times where I find it very hard to express myself through words, am I making myself clear?? If what you're reading is a whole load of rubberish-- tell me! Things that may make sense in my head often don't in other's.
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