Is Germany right to ban a couple naming their child Osama Bin Laden

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Pit Droid, Sep 6, 2002.

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  1. Terr_Mys Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    Well, he can always change his name when he gets older, can't he?

    IMO, the government had no right to do this. Sure, the kid may grow up to hate his name, but I mean...'Osama' is fairly common Islamic name, as is the name 'Bin Laden'. I can see where you're coming from, but this is just rediculous.

    My question is though...what are the parents like? I couldn't fathom how any reasonable person would name their child this, but perhaps they're just ordinary Muslims who wanted to give their child an ordinary Muslim name. But in any case, it's not the government's job to tell people what they can or can not name their children.
  2. womberty Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    Hey, can I name my kid Albert Einstein?

    Even though there probably aren't many people with a hatred for Einstein, a child by that name would still be ridiculed about his (or worse, her :p) name as it relates to his (her?) intelligence.

    That doesn't mean I can't name my kid Albert Einstein, does it?
  3. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    No, they actually want to name him after Osama Bin Laden who they claim is a "great man." The kid is probably already doomed. But if they want to name him after such a *censored* they should just name him Osama _____ (whatever their last name is) and avoid all this messiness. I would still dissaprove, but the larger association would be gone and it would improve things for the child. Now, if the government disallows the name Osama by itself then yes, they are being unreasonable. I seriously don't see how the right to name your child something despicable is an unalienable right.

    And there's nothing wrong with the name Einstein as he was not an evil man.
  4. Useless_Sock Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2002
    I know a guy named Jeff that's evil. Does that mean you can't name your kid Jeff?
  5. stevo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    star 4
    Evil is a matter of perspective and opinion. You cannot stop somebody from doing something because you don't like what they're doing. Like cwrn said, your opinion is irrelevant.
  6. womberty Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    So only names of evil people should be banned?
  7. chibiangi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    Parents do not have the right to beat their child, to rape their child, to emotionally abuse their child, to sell their child, to prostitute their child, to leave their child in a locked car all day. Some would even say parents shouldn't be allowed to spank their children either. Others would argue that parents shouldn't have the right to choose to become parents (pro-life movement). So yes, there a lot of restrictions on parents as to what they can do to their children.

    The question is: is it a right to name a child such an outlandish name that it would surely provoke mental, emotional, or even physical harm?

    If a parent calls their child dirty names, taunts them, and makes them feel horrible about themself, is that not emotional abuse? Why would naming your child the full name of a hated person or naming them *&*(head be any different?




  8. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Like cwrn said, your opinion is irrelevant.

    Not if the government they live under agrees with me.

    And I completely agree with you, chibiangi.
  9. Terr_Mys Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    Okay, I actually read the article now... :p

    As someone pointed out earlier, I too find it ironic that this man who decided to name his child after Osama because he is a "good man for our people", or however he worded it, is living in a country whose system of government is the complete opposite of what Bin Laden represents.

    But still, even though this is one extreme circumstance, I still believe that the government did not have the right to intervene. Perhaps the German government should instead look into dispelling this man from their country, for he is obviously not a friend of democracy, and will likely raise his son to follow in his beliefs.
  10. stevo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    star 4
    Not your opinion on the issue(again, sorry for not making myself clear) your opinon on Osama bin Laden.
  11. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Because what he did is not justifiable under any acceptable standards. And if you think it is, then there is something very wrong with you.
  12. stevo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    star 4
    Well, say if you don't let people name their children certain names. Where do you draw the line? Society should not set people's rights and morals.
  13. Terr_Mys Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    I'm not sure who that comment was directed at Rebecca, but I'd like to say that in no way am I supporting that man's decision in naming his child after a terrorist. It was a terrible, terrible thing to do to an innocent child. However, governments do not have the right to intervene in something as trivial as a name. I seriously believe that they should expel that man from their country. Anyone who lives within a democratic state should agree to support the principles of democracy, not terrorism.
  14. stevo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    star 4
    Hmmmm, how do you throw terrorists out of the country? Do you send government agents out, and when they think they find a supporter of terrorism, dump him in Mexico.? Are supporters of Palestineans supporters of terrorism that should be expelled from the country?






    EDIT: Punctuation-- its been too long without sleep to think of the trivialties of grammar.
  15. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    But society DOES set people's rights, directly or indirectly. Society influences who is elected to make laws, it influences what laws those elected make.

    And my comment was directed at stevo.
  16. stevo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    star 4
    Maybe I should re-word myself. Society shouldn't restrict a person't rights.


    We were all born with life(duh), liberty, and the right to pursue whatever makes us happy!
  17. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    and the right to pursue whatever makes us happy!

    Not if it harms another person. You can't steal cause it makes you happy. You can't rape cause it makes you happy. You can't murder cause it makes you happy.
  18. stevo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    star 4
    Um, duh.


    But it won't be the parents hurting their child. It will be the society that ridicules him. I am not saying that I like the fact that these parents are naming their child Osama bin Laden, but that doesn't change the fact that they should be able to.
  19. womberty Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    Rebecca:

    Is your problem that you, personally, don't like the name "Osama Bin Laden", or that you're afraid the child will suffer from it?

    If it's just because the child will suffer, explain to me again why I can still name my kid Albert Einstein.
  20. Terr_Mys Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    Remember, it's the right to the pursuit of happiness. Essentially meaning, that everyone has an equal opportunity to gain happiness, but that certainly isn't a guarantee. And of course, those opportunities only apply to things which don't interfere with the other natural rights (life and liberty, namely) of fellow citizens.

    And I'm not sure how the government is supposed to go about expelling supporters of terrorism, it's not my job to decide that. However, it would be nice if Germany could institute some stricter immigration policies, wouldn't it? It isn't very comforting knowing that an ally of democracy allows enemies of democracy to live within its borders.

    And to hell with society. I guess you could call that a motto of mine, if you'd like. :p "In matters of conscience, the majority has no place", as Ghandi would say. Society should not influence the decisions of the government. However, I know that it does indeed, and there's just something wrong with that. Unfortunately, there's nothing I can do about it. I don't exactly agree with society, so I guess that makes me wrong.
  21. Vaderbait Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 6
    I guess it's all right in Germany. They seem to have this problem living with homicidal maniacs in places of power. ;)
  22. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Is your problem that you, personally, don't like the name "Osama Bin Laden", or that you're afraid the child will suffer from it?

    If it's just because the child will suffer, explain to me again why I can still name my kid Albert Einstein.


    What's wrong with the name Albert Einstein? He was a scientist, and a genuis. A positive person. I don't think being named that would really have true negative effects like being named Osama Bin Laden.
  23. Obi Wan Bergkamp Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 1998
    star 3
    Being called an Einstein in school is a derogatory term used for those with intelligence (c.f. geek, braniac etc). Even the most positive name can be used negatively.

    Or alternatively, being called a bin Laden. A charismatic man who inspires such loyalty and devotion in his followers that they are prepared to sacrifice themselves for him and his stated goals. Negative names can be spun positively too.

    At the end of the day it's down to the parents to ensure the names they give their children are not open to abuse. In some cases they get it wrong. For instance I went to school with a Theresa Green. But surely the Government should not be allowed to step in and stop it because at what point must they take an interest? Who should we report parents with a problem to? After all people have named their children after entire sports teams?. While we are on the subject what about Romeo Beckham - what micky taking is he going to get for his name, irrespective of who his parents are.

  24. Terr_Mys Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    Anyone named 'Einstein' is likely to receive a lot of bullying, probably just as much as someone named 'Osama Bin Laden', because kids really don't understand the true atrocities that Bin Laden has committed. As for later on in life, the child will still be able to change his name, won't he? Besides, children in the Middle East have been named after him countless times. It just seems a little 'iffy' to me that the German government took it upon themselves to do this...

    I don't know. But I still think that the father should be expelled from the country. :p
  25. womberty Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    What's wrong with the name Albert Einstein? He was a scientist, and a genuis. A positive person. I don't think being named that would really have true negative effects like being named Osama Bin Laden.

    Because the name "Albert Einstein" will almost certainly get the child ridiculed by his peers.

    If you say it's wrong because the name is one of an evil man, and will cause people to hate the child - there are plenty of the same people who would hate him if he was named just Osama, or Muhammed, or Omar, or any of a number of Muslim names. Remember the random acts of violence against Muslims (and Sikhs, because people mistook them for Muslims) following Sept. 11? That same blind hatred is what you're wanting to prevent by stopping anyone from naming their kid Osama Bin Laden. You can't stop it, and if you think that naming our children pretty, normal names like Britney and Justin will help, you're wrong.

    In conclusion: it's not that you're afraid the kid will get ridiculed. It's that you don't like the name. Isn't it?
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