PT Is it a stretch to call the prequels some of the worst films ever made?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Feelicks, Feb 2, 2013.

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  1. TheMadHatter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2009
    star 4
    i'll list my responses

    1) I thought it sounded more Italian (if anything) and that's no bad thing, if you're going to speak English, only so many dialects you can choose, remember actors speak the parts not linguist scholars

    2) are you saying Jews are stingy and cheap?

    3) I bet all other Toydarains have those noses too, it's a species things, just as Zebras have stripes
  2. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    I was saying those are all stereotypes of Jews, embodied in Watto, which is what makes him offensive. Idc what his species is, he was designed a certain way for TPM. Toydarians weren't a race that existed in the GFFA before TPM, which is why that physical feature is particularly offensive when combined with the rest of Watto's personality traits.
  3. Legacy Jedi Endordude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2012
    star 3
    go ask people now days if they like the prequels, ask people of all ages, and see what they think. GO do that, but here's the catch, ask people who don't go on forums or the internet every day. And then see how many people think they suck. Once you've done that, come back to me and tell me your results!

    I disagree. How does the accent, nose, and money determent what race a character is based off of?
    don't even go there, give me an example of a good line from the OT and i'll give you an example of a good line from the PT, we could make a game out of it! :-B

    you have a point, that is subjective, I just see em the same.

    [face_rofl] sorry, I just couldn't resist!

    but you see, the problem with that is everyone on this fourms is devoted enough to star wars to have their own views on it, much like I love the prequels and you don't. I say ask people who were critics aroundthe time of ANH. That would work better.

    like the OTm it has it's flaws also, but it is still good!
    there is no point really, it's just that star wars fans have alot of opinions, and are not afraid to tell of them!
  4. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    "I disagree. How does the accent, nose, and money determent what race a character is based off of?"

    Stereotypes like that are exactly what determines what race a character is based off of
  5. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I've seen exactly the same arguments levelled at Jabba recently- he's fat, corrupt, has scantily-clad slave girls to dance for him- he must be an Arab stereotype.

    Sometimes people are seeing what they expect to see.
  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Which is fine--great, in fact. I learn a lot from people who disagree with me, at least those who are willing to have civil, respectful discussions.

    But the "critical acclaim" and "the majority agree with me" arguments seem to be an attempt to prove a point, and since an opinion on a work of art does not become somehow more valid when shared, I'm not sure what the point is. I'm hoping it's not an effort to marginalize those who disagree.
  7. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    Fat and corrupt are not Arab stereotypes. The only Arab stereotypes which apply to Jabba are he lives in a desert and has scantily dressed dancers. Hardly enough for a significant connection. Watto has a stereotypical Jewish accent, he's cheap, and has a big nose. Jar Jar practically speaks in ebonics among other parallels in movement and behaviour to Jim Crow. Jabba's don't compare remotely to what is displayed in Jar Jar and Watto.
  8. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
  9. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    The first argument is entirely opinionated. It's just that person calling what viewers interpret as racist BS. I never though Vader or ANH was racist for not including Black actors in the cast. Same reason I didn't think LOTR was racist for not including black actors in the cast. Watto speaks in a stereotypical Jewish accent. Fact. Watto displays behavioral traits which are stereotypical Jewish behavioral traits. Fact. Watto has a big nose, a sterotypical physical Jewish trait. Fact. They aren't opinions, they are observable truths about the character. The arguments about Jabba and the ludicrous one about Vader heavily draw on falsely implied subtexts which are not really present in the film. There are no subtexts about Watto, it's all there for everyone who watches the movie to see. And that is why it's offensive to me.

    I don't ever want to read about anything that has anything to do with Star Trek, that's just my personal taste, so I skipped the second argument after reading the title.
  10. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    You'll find quite a few criticisms of the "accent" conclusion- some people think it's closer to Italian.

    The first half is all about Star Wars- you don't need to scroll any further than that:
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Feb 9, 2013
  11. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    That still doesn't really help it any.
  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    This is their criticism of "Neimodians are Asian stereotypes" and "Jar Jar is a black stereotype"
    Show Spoiler
    First, I would like to ask you, the reader, the question: did you see the Neimoidians as Asian? If you did, then I think you need to ask yourself some hard questions regarding your own racism. Frankly, the instant I hear a white person telling me that my race is being insulted in TPM, I get pretty damned suspicious. Wouldn't I have noticed such an insult if it were there? I am not known for blithely ignoring racial attacks upon myself. Why then, did I fail to see that the Neimoidians were an "obvious" Asian stereotype? Why did I need a white person to explain the insult to me?
    The answer is simple: I didn't see the Neimoidians as an Asian stereotype because they bear no resemblance whatsoever to Asians. Let's examine all of the imaginary Asian stereotypes in the Neimoidian species:
    1. Accent: They claim the Neimoidians have an Asian accent. Well, many of my relatives come from Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc., and none of them sound remotely like the Neimoidians. In my opinion, the Neimoidians have a bizarre accent but it is not Asian. But what would I know about Asian accents- I'm just the son of Asian immigrants, and not a white Hollywood film critic.
    2. Appearance: My eyes aren't "slitted". My children's eyes aren't "slitted." My parents' eyes aren't "slitted." Asian eyes do not bear signs of reptilian horizontal "slits"- our pupils are round just like everyone else's. And the last time I checked, I do in fact possess a nose, as do all of my relatives. We Asians are not flat-faced, slit-eyed freaks! If you think that we are, and that the Neimoidians therefore represent us, then you are a racist.
    3. Behaviour: Frankly, I find it utterly abominable that anyone would even think of associating the Neimoidians behaviour with Asians. Are we to believe that any time we see a duplicitous alien species, it must represent Asians? Are we to believe that any time we see economic aggressors, they must be Asians? Anyone who instinctively associates duplicitous and economically aggressive behaviour with Asians is a racist, just as bad as the sort of scum who thinks that we're all slit-eyed freaks.
    As for the Gungans supposedly being a "black stereotype", I can only speak for myself as a human being, and not as a member of the race which is supposedly being slighted (although my informed perspective on the supposedly Asian stereotype of the Neimoidians leaves me doubtful of the anti-Gungan allegations, to say the least). But I will point out the following:
    1. Accent: I have only known a half-dozen people in my life who grew up in the Caribbean, but none of those people sounded like Jar-Jar Binks to me. The young actor who portrayed Jar-Jar Binks happened to be from the Caribbean- are the thought police using this fact in their allegations? From the Salem witch-hunt style of their attacks, I wouldn't be surprised.
    2. Dialect: I have never met a black person who spoke in Jar-Jar's dialect. I don't understand where this stereotype comes from- if it exists, I can only assume that it comes from a very obscure source. If people have to explain the Stepin' Fetchit stereotype (and to be honest, I'm still not sure who Stepin' Fetchit is, or what obscure piece of literature he came from), then is it really a stereotype? How can a stereotype be a stereotype if no one knows about it?
    3. Education: I don't know whether the Gungans are meant to be uneducated, or whether their native language is simply such that it affects the way in which they tend to speak Basic (the fictional language of the Star Wars universe). Frankly, the former sounds implausible to me, but regardless, the entire education angle is yet another product of racism. If you instinctively associate poor education levels with black people, then what does this reveal about you?
    4. Gait: I had no idea that the Gungans walked like black people until I read one of those articles "explaining" the resemblance. This may sound like I'm beating a dead horse, but if someone has toexplain to you that the resemblance exists, then maybe it doesn't exist. In my experience, black people don't walk any more "lackadaisically" than anyone else. I don't wish to be presumptuous in speaking on behalf of another visible minority, but I can only imagine that if I were a black person, I would be rather offended at the notion that lackadaisical movement is an intrinsic characteristic of black people.
    5. Floppy ears: It is a testament to the rabid intensity of the politically correct thought police that they would somehow find a way of making Jar-Jar's floppy creature ears into a stereotype of black people (by associating them with a certain Caribbean hairstyle). How ridiculous is this? Shall we institute a moratorium on all floppy-eared children's toys? From the sounds of it, there are an awful lot of stuffed animals and children's toys out there which have now become "racist."
    6. Ahmed Best: The young black actor who played Jar-Jar Binks is in the uncomfortable position of defending his portrayal against politically correct thought police who claim that he portrayed a racist stereotype directed against his own race. He claims that he was given wide latitude to control the character's physical mannerisms and speech patterns- his detractors retort that he is simply spouting the Lucasfilm party line and lying to everyone. Supposedly, he's part of a widespread conspiracy ... yeah, sure.
    Arawn_Fenn likes this.
  13. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    right of the bat there's a problem with that argument; He didn't notice the nemoidians as an insult to asians, and he's an asian. I didn't see that one either, so It's fine and I agree. But I AM Jewish, and I WAS OFFENDED by Watto's character.
  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    And I'm Scottish and am mildly offended by stereotypes of Scots as cheap- that doesn't mean I assume that all "cheap" characters are Scot stereotypes.
  15. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    Well, that's only one stereotype which I personally have never even heard before, and has no where near the notoriety and wide-spread commonness of the cheap big-nosed Jewish stereotype. Watto has three very distinct and visible stereotypes commonly directed towards Jews. If a caricature spoke in a scottish accent, wore a kilt, and was stingy with his money, I would hope you be offended by such a blatant statement.
  16. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    You mean Disney's Scrooge McDuck?
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  17. Ambervikings91 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2012
    star 2
    I'm not really sure why this thread is here, nobody is saying the prequels are worse gigli or something like that
  18. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    Walt Disney was a known racist.
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Watto definitely sounds more Italian to me but I don't feel like arguing that point either.

    Counter example though: RLM's anti-prequels video blatantly stereotypes women, and not just when Plinkett talks about the woman in the basement--all the points Stoklasa makes against the love story are stereotypes about women, all of which I find offensive. I've been told when I pointed this out that "some stereotypes are true" and that I need to grow a sense of humor.

    You're entitled to be offended by Watto and Jar-Jar but my question is, are some stereotypes more acceptable than others?
  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    And how many features does it take? And how much evidence that the character is the exception, not the rule?

    How long before all aliens in fiction are basically humans in a non-real-life colour, because somebody will be offended by any "exaggerated" physical feature?
  21. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    Watto is clearly an anti-semitic stereotype... was that not on purpose?
  22. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    It's okay to have a species with a big nose. It's okay to have a stingy character. It's okay to have aliens with Jewish accents. But putting them together is extremely offensive, because they draw too many parallels to a real world stereotype. Lucas could have avoided that whole situation by having Watto speak in an alien language, and just have given him subtitles. I would not have found him to be as offensive if that were the case. Cheap + big nose will always offend me, and anyone who can see the parallels that are drawn will be offended as well. It's the combination of multiple stereotypes which make it offensive. A cheap character by itself isn't offensive, because it can be anyone. A big nose is not offensive by itself either (I wasn't offended by that guy in Jabba's palace, or the Elephant faced guy in Mos Eisley), and an accent isn't offensive by itself, but when you combine multiple known stereotypes it enters a different realm.

    Some stereotypes are more accepted than others (it's an unfortunate and despicable thing that some are, but it's just the case), because they are less offensive. Italians liking pasta is not as offensive as Jews being cheap. Probably because Italians have not had a massive amount of propaganda published about them throughout known history, but that doesn't make stereotyping any less wrong. Stereotyping is wrong, and George was wrong to include them.

    No one ever said Plinkett wasn't offensive. He is extremely offensive. His intention was to offend some people, he starts the review by insulting and offending a large group of people (those who enjoy the PT). If you didn't want to be offended at that point, you should have stopped watching it. I don't think that was George's intention, which makes the Watto character all that much worse. But some people find offensive humor funny. It's their taste. Just as some people find racist jokes funny, it's their taste, albeit one which I don't share or care for.
  23. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    There's a James Bond saying "Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, the third time is enemy action"

    So a case could be made that any time three "clearly stereotypical" traits crop up in the same character- they make the character a stereotype.

    Would the solution be to check all characters when filming, and if any break the rule, the film must be revised?

    And if so- what kind of films are going to result?
  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Plenty of people have said Plinkett wasn't offensive; check out the RLM threads in this forum. And did you really just compare a stereotype of Italians liking pasta to a stereotype of "all women behave this way" or "all women want X in a man"?
  25. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    If they are saying Plinkett wasn't offensive, they are joking or incorrect. "all women behave this way" or "all women want x in a man" isn't a serious stereotype - no one actually believes that, and if they do, they have never dated a woman before. Plinkett was generalizing on purpose, which makes his statements about as serious as Italians liking pasta. It's a fact that there are some more common traits which a large number of women desire in men. If there weren't, there would be no "players" in our society. Plinkett was referring to those traits, the common ones which are almost identical in many romance stories.
    KilroyMcFadden likes this.
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