Is it Lucas's fault if audiences can't see past the special effects?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by DarthHomer, Apr 1, 2002.

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  1. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    You have to will yourself into giving the film a chance, instead of going in with a list of things TPM has to do to be accepted.

    Stop looking for what TPM is not, and try to see what it actually is.
  2. stone_jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2001
    star 4
    You have to will yourself into giving the film a chance

    I did, 3 years ago when I first saw it.
  3. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Then how come you didn't come up with any decent reasons for why it was the way it was?

    Do you really think there aren't any?
  4. stone_jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2001
    star 4
    What do you mean by decent reasons?

    I didn't especially care for the movie then, although I liked the duel, the Senate scene, and thought that the opening Jedi stuff was pretty cool.
  5. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    If one has to go out of one's way to come up with reasons why a movie doesn't suck... well, doesn't that say something about the quality of the movie to begin with?
  6. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    --See Shelley, you just did it with your last post.--
    *channelling five-year-old self for a moment*

    dahveed started it!

    ;)
  7. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    It says something about people who think it is going out of their way.
  8. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    --As i said, if TPM had been merely ok from an adult standpoint,--
    It was merely ok, and more than merely ok, from the standpoints of many adults.

    --it probably would have beaten out an admitedly flawed Matrix.--
    Maybe. For whatever that award is worth, anyhow.

    --Its unfair to compare these 2 very different movies,--
    Yet that is precisely what TPM-haters do, including you, and what the Academy did as well, to a result that you agree with.

    --but for me and millions--
    Millions? Really? Your proof of this?

    --of other inteligent movie fans the difference between the 2 was one was very watchable and the other was merely bearable (thanks to that SW label).--
    For me and many (I won't hazard a guess as to how many) intelligent movie fans, TPM was far better than "The Matrix," and not just because of the SW label.
  9. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    Stone_Jedi, every time I see that you've quoted me in your sig I just think it's the coolest thing! Thank you. :D

    Back on topic, this notion that you have to somehow strive to "understand" TPM before you can enjoy it is ridiculous. First off, we're not talking about "Memento" or "Mulholland Drive" here. There are no expressionistic leanings that leave the film open to a wide array of interpretation, nor is the plot overly complex. Like every "Star Wars" film the story is a very straightforward fantasy adventure tale. I think we all understand it just fine.

    Secondly, a film either works for a person or it doesn't. No one goes to a movie wanting not to like it. If the film has problems, it is ludicrous to attempt to blame the audience for them.
  10. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    I think it is possible for one to appreciate a movie after watching another, particularly in the case of movies in a series, like SW. I, like Oakessteve, appreciate ROTJ more with the onset of the Prequel Trilogy, even though it's still my least favorite of the series. I also appreciate ANH and ESB more; some scenes have gained more resonance now that I have background info on characters who, previously, I could only guess about.

    And after having seen other, highly touted and highly acclaimed movies which were praised for the same factors that were found inexcusable in TPM, both by professional critics and by people on these boards, I have come to appreciate TPM even more.
  11. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    "It says something about people who think it is going out of their way."


    Ah... prelude to more flame-bait armchair psychoanalysis there, Gome?

    You're talking in circles again... on the one hand, those of us who don't think TPM is the hottest thing since sliced bread are remiss in our duties as SW fans because we're supposedly not trying hard enough to like TPM. And then suddenly when somebody calls you on that, you've somehow got our psychological number due to the fact that we would have to make an effort to try and find reasons to truly like TPM.

    Round and round he goes... and where he stops, nobody knows!

    ;)
  12. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Well, if you don't entertain the possibility that there are good reasons for making TPM the way Lucas has, you will never see any.

    I also think it makes sense to try and understand a film before passing judgement on it. On the other hand, if you don't care about not liking TPM or any of the prequels for that matter, I don't blame you for giving up at "it doesn't make sense".

    It's not like I tried to undersatnd the "Crying Game". But then again it's not like I go to crying game sites and try and convince them the film was bad. It just isn't for me.

    It's for the people who enjoyed it.

    Maybe the prequels just aren't your cup of tea.
  13. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    --Back on topic, this notion that you have to somehow strive to "understand" TPM before you can enjoy it is ridiculous. First off, we're not talking about "Memento" or "Mulholland Drive" here. There are no expressionistic leanings that leave the film open to a wide array of interpretation, nor is the plot overly complex. Like every "Star Wars" film the story is a very straightforward fantasy adventure tale. I think we all understand it just fine.--
    Not really. The plot is much more complex than any of the SW movies so far, and left some TPM haters saying that there was no plot, others saying there was too much plot. I've seen countless posts from TPM haters who complained about such and such "flaw," only to see it explained by someone who liked TPM.

    --Secondly, a film either works for a person or it doesn't. No one goes to a movie wanting not to like it.--
    I doubt that. I've seen people say they hated TPM and are going to AOTC just so they can complain about it.

    --If the film has problems, it is ludicrous to attempt to blame the audience for them.--
    If everyone who sees the film sees those same problems, then it would be. But not everyone sees the "problems" with TPM that TPM haters do. Besides which, I see people who hated TPM praise other films which have the same "problems" TPM has.
  14. dahveed72 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
    ill "HAZARD A GUESS" and say that over 50 million people saw the Phantom Menace. If even 4 percent of those 50 million + didnt like it, well you do the math. I dont have to "go out on a limb" to suggest that MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WERE VERY DISAPPOINTED BY TPM. If you cant concede this simple statistical fact, then good luck to you..
  15. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Well Patrick to you guys, it is all the film's fault. I figure that because some of us didn't have the same problems you guys had, you have to rule the film out as the culprit.

    If it were truly the film's fault, nobody would "see" why TPM was the way it was.

    Judging by how well it did at the box office, and then later on VHS and then later on DVD, you have to at least assume that "enough" people liked it.

    The problem with a new SW movie is that everyone expects to like it, when that's impossible. No film will be liked by everyone. It is a statistical improbability.

    So when an average number of people don't like it, they assume they should have, and that's their basis for assuming TPM somehow failed as a film.

    I mean come on, back in 99-00, TPM was the second highest grossing film world wide. That renders any claim that the film "failed" entirely without basis.
  16. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    "I also think it makes sense to try and understand a film before passing judgement on it."


    As if on cue, ol' Gome immediately reverts back to "You're just too thick to UNDERSTAND the complex piece of cinema that is TPM..."

    Uh... I think I understand TPM just fine by now, guy. And I still think that it is by far the weakest, sloppiest SW film to date. It was so close to being a great movie, and yet it just doesn't get there... for a lot of surprisingly intelligent people.
  17. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    GMT, I have never strove to really like a film. Over the years, I've just watched movies and liked the ones I like. Simple.

    This other business about "see" why TPM was the way it was: You act like there's only one way to "get" a film. That's a tad much isn't it Gome? ;)

    I'm really starting to wonder why a few Gushers seem to have such a problem, not with the bashes made against TPM, but the fact people would dare bash it at all.

    You know Gome, I don't see you gushing much at all. :confused:I only see you defending TPM from bashers.

    And what does The Matrix have to do with TPM? Really? Some are obviously still bitter TPM wasn't recognized by "The Academy". I really didn't care much for The Matrix, and don't understand why some bring that film into a TPM discussion.

    I'll gush over the parts I think are great, and bash over the many points I don't.
  18. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    "If it were truly the film's fault, nobody would "see" why TPM was the way it was"


    Well, according to you it's the audience's fault for not being smart enough to understand it. I wonder how I managed to buy my own ticket without help.
  19. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I am not even implying that anyone is thick headed or not smart enough, I just think some people weren't willing to put in the effort.

    Not that they wouldn't be able to, but they didn't want it bad enough.

    I was actually replying to this statement made by AgentCoop: "Back on topic, this notion that you have to somehow strive to "understand" TPM before you can enjoy it is ridiculous."

    I think understanding is half the battle.
  20. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    "I mean come on, back in 99-00, TPM was the second highest grossing film world wide. That renders any claim that the film "failed" entirely without basis."

    If that's your measure of a film's success then you must think "Titanic" is the greatest achievment in the history of cinema.
  21. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I certainly wouldn't call it a "failure".

    I thought it was pretty cool. I wouldn't say it's my favorite, but at the very least "enough" people liked it.

    Not everyone will.
  22. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    So popularity equals artistic merit?
  23. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    No, artistic merit = artistic merit.

    Box office doesn't really equate to "success", even Godzilla did what like 200 somthing?

    But once you get past the 400 mark, you have to aknowledge the repeat business that implies.
  24. dahveed72 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
    I WISH that i didnt enjoy TPM because of its excessive complexity or depth or because its FX were so good that they distracted me from the abovementioned complexity and depth.
    Never in the history of filmmaking has there been such an enormous built-in audience for an upcoming movie, and for myself ive NEVER WANTED TO LIKE A MOVIE MORE BEFORE I SAW IT THAN THE PHANTOM MENACE!! Never!! ok?

    I was 9 when i saw ESB in the theaters, and i was collecting action figures (my favorite was the 12 inch Boba Fett with the ejecting spear) and dressing up as Luke (my b-day is on Halloween) since i was 5. Not to mention the lunch boxes and the bedsheets (my mother still has those). I think i qualify as a fan. Unfortunately, I learned something in college called "critical thinking" and its forced me to , at times, be disappointed with a work of art.

    If only Adam and Eve hadnt bitten into that apple...
  25. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    Repeat business is precisely where TPM's box-office returns failed to perform. Before it's release it was widely accepted that the film would break ALL box-office records and become the highest grossing film of all time. It didn't. A lot of us who would have gone back many times didn't. I went on the second day of release. The theatre was half empty because people who had bought advance tickets for the first two or three days had seen it on opening day and then decided not to come back.
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