Is it Lucas's fault if audiences can't see past the special effects?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by DarthHomer, Apr 1, 2002.

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  1. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    davheed72: "I WISH that i didnt enjoy TPM because of its excessive complexity or depth or because its FX were so good that they distracted me from the abovementioned complexity and depth."

    Go-Mer: Granted.

    davheed72: "Never in the history of filmmaking has there been such an enormous built-in audience for an upcoming movie, and for myself I've NEVER WANTED TO LIKE A MOVIE MORE BEFORE I SAW IT THAN THE PHANTOM MENACE!! Never!! ok?"

    Go-Mer: If you say so.

    davheed72: "I was 9 when I saw ESB in the theaters, and I was collecting action figures (my favorite was the 12 inch Boba Fett with the ejecting spear) and dressing up as Luke (my b-day is on Halloween) since I was 5. Not to mention the lunch boxes and the bedsheets (my mother still has those). I think I qualify as a fan."

    Go-Mer: I never meant to imply you weren't.

    davheed72: "Unfortunately, I learned something in college called "critical thinking" and it's forced me to , at times, be disappointed with a work of art."

    Go-Mer: I'm sorry to hear that.

    davheed72: "If only Adam and Eve hadnt bitten into that apple..."

    Go-Mer: At some point you have to stop blaming everything else for how you are.
  2. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    AgentCoop: "Repeat business is precisely where TPM's box-office returns failed to perform. Before it's release it was widely accepted that the film would break ALL box-office records and become the highest grossing film of all time."

    Go-Mer: Yeah right, it's gonna beat the freak of nature that was Titanic's box office take. If you watch the making of on the DVD, you will hear Lucas dispell the probability it would beat Titanic. He made a bet with Spielburg that it wouldn't even beat ET (of course he lost that bet).

    AgentCoop: "It didn't (beat all records)."

    Go-Mer: It still beat out every other movie under the sun aside from Titanic, that isn't the least bit impressive to you?

    AgentCoop: "A lot of us who would have gone back many times didn't. I went on the second day of release. The theatre was half empty because people who had bought advance tickets for the first two or three days had seen it on opening day and then decided not to come back."

    Go-Mer: Like I said, not everyone will like any given movie, and to expect that is a little excessive. I saw it 21 times at full price and who knows how many times at the dollar theaters. Every time I went (on the weekends near 6-7 PM) I found the theater packed with people who were obviously enjoying the film. Hell after a while, all the "dissapointed" people stopped coming and all that was left were people who laughed at Jar-Jar.
  3. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    ""Repeat business is precisely where TPM's box-office returns failed to perform. "


    That's absolutely incorrect. Sone people want to pretend that TPM faded quickly but it really didn't. TPM held up bettrer than most 'big' movies in recent history. Movies open on way more theaters today, and make a lot more money mroe quickly,. This is especially true of movies that have huge openings. It's lowest drop in the first 12 weeks was 43% and that was AFTER July 2th weekend - movies generaly drop 50% or more after a big holiday weekend.

    But TPM managed to hold on better than almost all recent blockusters. Titanic is obviously the champ. Toy Stoyr 1, JP 1 and Sixth Sense had staying power that was a BIT better than TPM.

    Considering that there were 11 100 million dollar movies that opened in TPM's first 12 weeks, its performance was very good. The key was to see movies that opened higher than TPM all fall behind it on the charts as the weeks past.

    Bt the way, Harry Potter was supposed to beat Titanic (forget about it beating TPM, and there were some who were sure that FOTR would beat TPM as well) These predictions were for the movies' domestic performance. HP DID manage to get mast TPM worldwide, but can no where near Titanic.

    All those predictions were based on HYPE, not on anythign approaching reality. There are probably very few people who thing that AOTC will beat Titanic, or that any other lord of thew Rings or Harry Potter sequel will surpass TPM.
  4. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    I'm still not hearing a good reason why a film with the largest built-in audience in the history of moviemaking was unable to unseat a third-rate love story that takes place aboard a leaky boat.
  5. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I think that generally speaking, people are more jaded and quicker to pass judgement than we used to be.

    The bad press came just before the film came out, and continued during it's whole run.

    I think some people were so worried about being seen as a "Lucasdrone" who would swallow anything he crapped onto a film, that they didn't give it a proper chance.

    On top of that Titanic DOUBLED the previous highest gross for a film. That is an extremely hard thing to beat.
  6. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    "Rolling Stone" noted that one of the trends of 1999 was to trash TPM, even if you liked it.

    The bad press bandwagon steamrolled through the movie's run and past it, and it continues to do so, what with E! Online choosing TPM for "Worst Sequel of All Time" and various magazines and so forth insisting that everyone hated TPM, that no one cared what Anakin was like as a 9-year-old, and thinking up various theories as to why the DVD sold well or the telecast got such good ratings. It never crosses their minds that a lot of people actually LIKED the movie, despite the vicious bashing and nonstop bad press, which completely drowned out all positive reaction to the movie.

    I also think some people were afraid to admit they liked TPM, for fear of being thought stupid, without taste, or a mindless Lucas-worshipper. I've been accused of being a mindless Lucas-worshipper more than once myself, on this board. Odd that on a SW board, defending Lucas and/or one of his movies is thought to be tantamount to worshipping him mindlessly.
  7. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    You said it, Shelley.

    actually, prunef8ce, the OT was very well remembered when it came out.

    Didn't you see all the stuff they sold and the fact that it had sequels in the first place?


    What do you mean actually? Who were the people that purchased those items? And many purchased them simply because it would be worth a lot of money in the future and cared little about "this geeky show". Who were the people that went to the theaters 10 times in a row and raised the box office intake of the OT to make it a box office spectacle? SW fans. And now everyone knows the NAME SW, but are all of people that talk about its intake really into its lores and intricacies like FANS? Heck no!

    And who made the PT possible due to its success at the box office in the past? Fans. Just plain fans.

    Its the fans that stood by the OT all these years as people scoffed and made fun of this sagas story and scifi nerdy world etc, and now those very same people are scoffing and making fun of their fellow SW fans in 1999 up. Thats pretty screwed up if you ask me.
  8. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    <<Rolling Stone" noted that one of the trends of 1999 was to trash TPM, even if you liked it.

    The bad press bandwagon steamrolled through the movie's run and past it, and it continues to do so, what with E! Online choosing TPM for "Worst Sequel of All Time" and various magazines and so forth insisting that everyone hated TPM, that no one cared what Anakin was like as a 9-year-old, and thinking up various theories as to why the DVD sold well or the telecast got such good ratings. It never crosses their minds that a lot of people actually LIKED the movie, despite the vicious bashing and nonstop bad press, which completely drowned out all positive reaction to the movie.

    >>


    Ah yes, the old "Get off the bandwagon and like TPM like everyone else!!!" argument. That makes a lot of sense. Craploads of people liked TPM, and those who don't are the ones "on the bandwagon". I love how people think that everyone who doesn't like TPM is only doing it because it's "kewl" (despite the fact that it is one of the most popular movies of all time, but whatever).


    Maybe I should make a bigger effort to like TPM. Maybe I should get a lobotomy on the part of my brain that allows for critical analysis. That way, I can laugh hilariously every single time Jar-Jar appears on screen, marvel at the texture of young Anakin's character, and get lost in the depth of Obi-Wan's.

    Oh, and I used to be a gusher, but then I changed my opinion of the movie, so I wonder how I fit into this little theory.
  9. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Once again you don't have to like anything you don't want to. Just don't try and tell us we like it because we don't have any critical faculties.

    We see the flaws present in the film. We aren't complete idiots. We just don't get hung up on them. Many of us realize that it can't be perfect and enjoy the movie in spite of that fact.

    Just like we had to do with the classic trilogy.

    Of course we don't all think having Anakin only 9 years old was a mistake. We don't all think Jar-Jar was a mistake.

    I think you should question the film, but only if you are willing to figure out the answers.

    Don't just give up at "it makes no sense!"
  10. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    See, you insist TPM is the same as the classsic trilogy, and you refuse to let anyone else believe otherwise. In your eye, they are just being biased for some reason or another.
  11. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    It certainly appears that way.

    I love the bit in Jay & Silent Bob at the end when everybody pours out of the Bluntman and Chronic premeire. Steve-Dave and the other comic book guy come out wearing a Bluntman and Chronic T-Shirt with a self applied circle with a line through it painted over it, as they slam the film.

    There is some truth to that.
  12. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    If people can't see past special effects, that's their problem, not Lucas's. That goes for TPM, as well as the OT. If all you can think about is all the little nitpicks and personal pet pieves (like the fact that lightsaber shadows don't reflect the glow, or a supposedly "obviously plastic leaf," or the lightsaber effects of the Vader/Kenobi duel, or optical composite space shots, or the lack of Palpatine, Yoda, Bail Organa and the Imperial March in ANH, or the absence of McDiarmid in ESB, etc.) that supposedly rip one out of the Star Wars universe because of how awful one thinks they look, that is also the viewer's problem, not Lucas's. He is not going to tailor these films to everyone's specifications.
  13. Basil_Hennington Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2002
    star 4
    prunef8ce, EVERYBODY was into Star wars.

    it was a huge cultural thing, everyone loved it and it soared to the top of the all time box office.

    It wasn't just "geeks" as you call them, seeing it, but EVERYBODY!

    Everybody from age 5 to 105 loved this movie!
  14. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    There were many people who couldn't understand what the rest of us saw in ANH, or ESB or ROTJ. The only difference with TPM is now there are many more people don't understand what we see in it.
  15. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    that is also the viewer's problem, not Lucas's. He is not going to tailor these films to everyone's specifications.

    Dont you see how you make our points by just speaking? ;)


    prunef8ce, EVERYBODY was into Star wars.

    it was a huge cultural thing, everyone loved it and it soared to the top of the all time box office.

    It wasn't just "geeks" as you call them, seeing it, but EVERYBODY!

    Everybody from age 5 to 105 loved this movie!


    Nope. Generalizations lead to the dark side. Once again...NOPE. Many people out there cant stand the PT just like many people cannot stand the OT back in the day. Maybe for a trend, yes some of them that you think constitutes EVERYONE were "into it", but it died off and the ones left are labeled "nerds". They are the true ones that stuck up for the movies when this happened. Fans. I dont use the term loosely. My point still stands.

    PruneF8ce:
    Its the fans that stood by the OT all these years as people scoffed and made fun of this sagas story and scifi nerdy world etc, and now those very same people are scoffing and making fun of their fellow SW fans in 1999 up. Thats pretty screwed up if you ask me.

    The appeal to pop culture of SW is not at its peak anymore, so this "EVERYONE saw it in 1977 so it must be better that the PT" business cannot be trusted anyway.
  16. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Obi-Ewan is making our points because he is actually with us on this.
  17. Basil_Hennington Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2002
    star 4

    your point does NOT still stand, as everyone whom I have met either loves Star wars or at least really likes it, and very few of them are "nerds".


    prune- "your overconfidence is your weakness."

  18. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "Once again...NOPE."

    Another masterful rebuttal. ;)

    First off, no amount of nopes, capitalized or no, will refute ANH's unprecedented commercial success. ANH didn't just attract these "fans" you credit with supporting it in the face of... whatever crisis you seem to believe it faced; it created the fans. People didn't buy the action figures for the money--there was no money in the action figure market at the time, as film-based merchandising was a virtually unknown concept--they bought them to have them, and to give them to their kids--and they bought them in large enough quantities to finance George's empire.
  19. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    Its the fans that stood by the OT all these years as people scoffed and made fun of this sagas story and scifi nerdy world etc, and now those very same people are scoffing and making fun of their fellow SW fans in 1999 up. Thats pretty screwed up if you ask me.

    People bashing the OT and other SW fans? That still happens today.

    The speeder chase scene looks like Late Night with Conan O'Briens desk drive bit where he makes believe hes driving his desk while a screen rapidly moves scenery behind him. Watch one of those sketches, then watch that scene.

    You can see the plastic leaves fly by Luke and Leiah in that speeder chase! Takes me right outta the moment.

    Bring em on! I hate plastic models of the DS. And no one said that it was palps or organas movie. You guys are exagerating so your arguments look better. Where is the emperor in ANH if hes in every film up to that point, and every film after? It throws you completely out of the movie!

    You must be high. Its the best thing weve got for the environment thats in the script. And it looks damn fine to me. Try and do that stuff with strictly rubber suits and claymation. Could someone say laughing stock?




  20. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    You don't ever really hear about the people who didn't find anything to like in ANH, because they had the decency to get on with their lives. None of them went on any crusades to try and convince the rest of the world they were delusional and had no "taste".
  21. Basil_Hennington Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2002
    star 4

    are you saying I don't have taste becasuse I didn't laugh at JarJar??

    [face_plain]
  22. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    your point does NOT still stand, as everyone whom I have met either loves Star wars or at least really likes it, and very few of them are "nerds".

    Well then id say that you are very fortunate. Of course this is not prevalent. Many people do not buy all of the SW action figures they can get you know, or camp out for tickets. THOSE are the big fans.

    Another masterful rebuttal.

    Well frankly, I get tired of this.

    First off, no amount of nopes, capitalized or no, will refute ANH's unprecedented commercial success.

    Who said anything about it not having an unprecedented success? Do you need glasses?


    ANH didn't just attract these "fans" you credit with supporting it in the face of... whatever crisis you seem to believe it faced;[/i]

    Crisis? Lets not go nuts here. Thats too strong of a word for what happens when people move onto the next trend. Im sure in 86 or so, SW died down in mainstream, and the ones that were left were still nuts about it.

    it created the fans.

    Well of course it created the fans. Just not everyone stuck to the level of fandom that vets have. They supported it at that era. We are supporting it at THIS era.

    People bashing the OT and other SW fans? That still happens today.

    Yeah well tell any Joe Basher to look in the mirror and youll see yourself in those quotes of mine. Lets put it that way.

  23. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    No. Why would you think that Basil_Hennington? I am just saying that people who laugh at him aren't devoid of taste either. We just happen to have different tastes.
  24. Basil_Hennington Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2002
    star 4
    you bash it more than anyone else, prune.
  25. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    are you saying I don't have taste becasuse I didn't laugh at JarJar??

    You need Bi-Focals.
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