Is it Lucas's fault if audiences can't see past the special effects?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by DarthHomer, Apr 1, 2002.

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  1. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    (Psst! Hey Gomes... I understand TPM just fine. It's not that difficult to figure out. I just think it was a mess and evidence that Lucas was incredibly rusty after 15-20 years of not making SW films. It has utterly nothing to do with my "not understanding it". You can condescend all you like, but it's not going to change that.)
  2. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Hey all I am saying is it is a two way street.

    Once again Patrick, I believe there are things that aren't shown in TPM that will come out in AOTC that may change your mind. Stuff that you probably wouldn't get just going on TPM alone.

    Just for the record, I find you to be one of the more intelligent posters in this forum.
  3. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
    AC,

    I'm sure the "gusher" side of this thread's topic will argue that the acting was not weak, that the effects were not over the top, etc. If you could get everyone to agree on that, your question would mean something to them, but I don't think you can.

    And round and round it goes, right?
  4. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I don't think the acting (well other than McDiarmid) was award-worthy, but it wasn't any worse than the acting in the classic trilogy.

    I don't think the effects were overdone, and can't imagine why people would come to that conclusion.

    While I don't see TPM as a perfect film, I think it's value is worth much more than the sum of it's parts.
  5. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    Opinion noted, Go-Mer. I respectfully disagree.

    Please do the same.
  6. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
  7. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    Patrick has been quite accurate with his assessment of the circularity of your posts and your return to the "just not getting it" mindset. There is no respect in that; just disagreement.
  8. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    I appreciate that, Gomer.

    I DO really love Star Wars, y'know, and I do still hold out hope that AOTC will appeal to me more than TPM did. I'm not sure what all could possibly happen in AOTC which would change the fact that Jar Jar upstages everyone on a repeated basis in TPM, or that the PT's main characters were all but ignored in TPM, but we'll certainly see in another month.

    What I expect AOTC will add to is TPM's political storyline. And as I've mentioned before, I found that to be one of the film's few saving graces. Personally, I felt that that aspect of the story deserved more focus, but I enjoyed what there was of it. If AOTC makes this part even better, then I'm all for it.

    But IMHO there's not much that AOTC can really do to fix some of the weak dramatic choices that Lucas made in TPM (we shouldn't have to wait till Episode II to care about the main characters... it's just unnecessary, and it's weak storytelling) and there's no way that AOTC will fix TPM's Jar Jar problem. Upstaging is upstaging, and there's not much that additional context can do to change that.

    BUT... I do expect to have fun when I see AOTC, and I think there's a good chance I'll like it better than TPM. And that's all I really ask of it.

  9. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    You guys should know I have a great deal of respect for you all.

    I may not make this disclaimer in every heated argument I get into, but I do not think any of you are idiots, or incapable of seeing the things I do.

    It is just that for whatever reason, many of you don't.

    Hence the fact we disagree so much.
  10. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    That's cool, man. I mean, we're all here because we dig Star Wars. That's the main thing. And I don't think anyone here is a blithering idiot... s'not possible! ;)

    I might suggest, though, that you entertain the notion that perhaps we DO understand TPM fully, HAVE run it through the same fine-tooth comb as we all have with the OT, and still find it lacking despite that fact.

    I know I've given just about every aspect of TPM plenty of thought and have some idea as to where certain things could probably be expanded upon in some way in the next two movies. I hope Lucas pulls a fast one or two and still catches me unaware on something, but I don't think there's much about TPM that I've glossed over at this point. There are some questionable bits from TPM that I can see Lucas expanding upon and adding depth to (such as the whole midichlorian thing) but a lot of the stuff that rubs me the wrong way about the movie isn't going to magically change no matter HOW cool AOTC is.

    BUT... with the 10 year gap between TPM and AOTC, worst comes to worst I can always just start my eventual marathon SW DVD sessions with AOTC. ;)
  11. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I entertain that notion, but sometimes it feels as if we are all in the middle ages, and I happened to catch a ride on a time travelling shuttle and saw from orbit that the Earth was round. If I were to come back to Earth and argue with someone who tells me that after researching all the "facts", they still see the Earth as being flat, well obvioulsy, it is hard for me to agree with that.

    I may seem like a blindly devoted Lucasdrone, but it is just that for every point where you guys ask "Why did he do that?" I have an answer.

    But that is the problem with having different points of view. Everybody thinks their's is the only "true" perspective.

    I may be wrong, I just don't think so.
  12. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    See, now you're all but comparing those who found TPM to be flawed with flat-earthers. Can't you see how that quashes respectful discussion?
  13. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I am not sure "flat-Earthers" are worthy of disrespect, as they were only going on the information available to them at the time. It isn't that they were incapable of seeing the world as round, they just didn't have any reasons to do so.

    It is just the way it feels to me from time to time.

    And like I said, maybe I am the flat lander here. I could be wrong, I just don't think so.

    But what if I am right? What if you went into AOTC and TPM suddenly "clicked" for you. Would you welcome that?
  14. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    But that's *exactly* the kind of condescending attitude that makes me wish I had a 'ban' button, Go-Mer.

    The problem is that you have not actually had such an epiphany about the film. You have not had the shuttle experience and you most certainly are not arguing with "Flat Earthers".

    You are discussing the film with people who have seen every scene you have, and have a different understanding. The difference between us is that you seem to feel that you are casting pearls before swine. We simply are able to distinguish what was inthe films from what isn't. You don't see people in our camp fabricating meaning to explain poor pacing/characterization/etc. That is the job of the Lucas apologist - someone who sees a flaw in a construct, but fabricates spin in an effort to demonstrate that it isn't a flaw, it's a feature!
  15. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    How do you know what experiences I have had?

    Again, I wish there was a way I could explain this without making you guys think I feel better than any of you.

    It all stems from our basic disagreements.

  16. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    "I entertain that notion, but sometimes it feels as if we are all in the middle ages, and I happened to catch a ride on a time travelling shuttle and saw from orbit that the Earth was round. If I were to come back to Earth and argue with someone who tells me that after researching all the "facts", they still see the Earth as being flat, well obvioulsy, it is hard for me to agree with that. "

    Now you're comparing yourself to Columbus? [face_laugh]

    Gomer Columbus set sail from Skywalker Ranch to spread Lucasism to the Basher "savages".

    "I may seem like a blindly devoted Lucasdrone, but it is just that for every point where you guys ask "Why did he do that?" I have an answer."

    No, you have your opinion.

    "I may be wrong, I just don't think so."

    Does megalomania come to mind? ;)



  17. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
  18. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    How do you know what experiences I have had?

    Ironically enough, I can ask that same question of you. What proof do you have that I don't understand the film, the meaning of scenes, and can recognize poor quality when I see it? Exactly what is your proof that my experiences have deluded me? Your own experiences?

    All hail Go-Mer-Tonic! First Prophet of Anecdotal Argumentation, Non-Euclidian Geometry, Non-Clinical Psychiatry and Tolerant Selflessness! How fortunate we are that you have deigned to descend from your platinum pedastal to grace us with your wisdom beyond the ages.

    Please, allow me to wash your feet with my tears and hair...
  19. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Hence the disclaimer where I said I may be wrong I just don't think so.

    I don't expect you guys to treat my posts as manna from Lucas, I am just trying to show you guys how I see these things.

    Who knows, maybe you guys are the ones who will be proven right.

    Is that what you would prefer?
  20. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    "But what if I am right? What if you went into AOTC and TPM suddenly "clicked" for you. Would you welcome that?"


    Gomer, in the highly unlikely event that AOTC somehow managed to create a context in which all of the problems I have with TPM magically melted away, I'd be effin' ecstatic. No joke.
  21. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Why is that so unlikely?

    If you don't think something is possible, then it won't be.

    I don't want you guys to get your hopes up to much, and I don't blame you for that, I just hope for all SW fans everywhere I am right.

    I apologise for holding my opinions in higher esteem than all of yours, but I guess that's what makes them my opinions.

    Again, I really don't mean to insult any of you.
  22. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    I'm not looking for any of us to be "proven" right. These are all opinions; and explanations of why different people had different experiences with the movie. All I am looking for is a little humility. A little modesty. A little recognition that maybe, just maybe, we have a reason to believe what we believe.

    These kinds of arguments have been going on since I first lurked in these boards a year ago, and I've had to put up with this sanctimonious piffle since I registered.

    Here's a little life lesson for you, Go-Mer:

    "The truly wise man is he who knows that he knows nothing." If you would even separate for a moment your interpretation from your construct of the "objective reality" of the film, if you would even recognize that maybe, just maybe, you're reading more into the film that is actually there; if you would preface your posts on hypothetical matters with the simple phrase "In my opinion..." you wouldn't get banned for you condescending attitude. You wouldn't raise the ire of those who are looking for reasoned discussion rather than preaching.

    How many times must you hear this, and from how many people?
  23. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I live by that. Do you?
  24. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
    Now hang on people...

    Go-Mer, I can see where their complaints come from. I've always had that in the back of my head when posting in argument with you, that feeling that you're condescending to us in your posts. You have to admit it comes out that way a lot.

    But I do see where you're coming from. Perhaps I can offer an suggestion before any more people jump into this? Technically, this is not a topical matter, so I hope this can help before it's locked down. You're very close to breaking through diplomatically. I have faith that it's in you, that it's not just a facade.

    I think that if you post in such a way that doesn't invite a shot back, you can get your point across without wounding someone's pride. As you've acknowledged, every one of the guys in here that are saying this are all smart lads who can read subtle remarks as well as the plain ones. Maybe just saying, "I feel that I see something that you don't, but I know you feel the same way about me," is placatory enough to make some peace. It acknowledges that opinion is very much a factor, and gives them at least the satisfaction that they can feel that they're still right. Because if you insult someone (even unintentionally), you can guarantee they'll be back, usually harder and with less tact... edging closer and closer to open confrontation.

    EDIT -- What's up with me trying to come across as all diplomatic today? Someone PM me and tell me you don't like it! :)
  25. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I guess I work on the assumption that it is obvious that we all are expressing our "humble" opinions, but it couldn't hurt to say it from time to time.

    That is what I have been trying to do here with my "I may be wrong, I just don't think so" line.
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