Is it Lucas's fault if audiences can't see past the special effects?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by DarthHomer, Apr 1, 2002.

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  1. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    I live by that.

    In real life? Because you certainly don't do that on these boards.

    Do you?

    Every day shows me just how little I know and how much there is out there to understand. That is why my discussion here is limited to what I can describe in a coherentist manner, from personal experience, and reflecting my opinion. I at least make an effort to toss in little phrases like "It seems to me...", "An argument could be made...", "I get the impression...", etc.

    These are statements that necessarily imply that I could be wrong, and that what I am relaying is subjective experience. So, to answer your question in a word, "Yes."
  2. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I will strive to present myself in a more humble fashion.
  3. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
    Kumbayah, milord, kumbayah....

    :D

    <holds hands with everyone>
  4. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    <<settles down>>

    <<straightens shirt>>

    <<buys everyone a round as a sign of good faith>>
  5. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    After "Kumbaya" can we sing "Michael Row The Boat Ashore"?
  6. GORILLA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 2
    Malthus, you're a good guy. Probably the only sane person on this entire thread. But if you sing kumbayah one more time. I'm going to boil you in oil just like I want to do with Go-Mer.
  7. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
    just like I want to do with Go-Mer

    If I can boil you for saying that, then I promise not to sing Kumbayah again...

    ;)

    "you will destroy ALL for which they have fought... and suffered..."
  8. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I guess the reason I end up taking such a hard line appraoch, is I feel so alone with my opinions. I feel if I don't defend them to the hilt, they will be entriely ignored.

    The main reason I took up this "TPM Crusade" was because it really made me feel bad that so many fans felt TPM was nothing but a 2 hour toy commercial.

    I see a lot of love and care that went into TPM, and I just wish eveyrone could see it like I do.
  9. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
    I see a lot of love and care that went into TPM, and I just wish eveyrone could see it like I do.

    Oddly enough, so do we. Hence the multiple viewings of the movie by the bashahs. And you know what, Go-Mer? You're one of the few "gushers" that I really see as a debate challenge. There are others to be sure, but you're like the boss at the end of the Gusher Level.

    :)

    So, like, I think this thread is done... and stuff.
  10. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    I'm out of this topic for a few days and everyone gets delusions of grandeur? :)

    Since none of the mods seem to care there are about half a dozen bashers ganging up on Go-mer at the moment, I'll leap in.
    First things first:
    Agent Coop:
    "Repeat business is precisely where TPM's box-office returns failed to perform. Before it's release it was widely accepted that the film would break ALL box-office records and become the highest grossing film of all time. It didn't. A lot of us who would have gone back many times didn't. I went on the second day of release. The theatre was half empty because people who had bought advance tickets for the first two or three days had seen it on opening day and then decided not to come back. "



    This has to be one of the oldest and most tired arguments around. Yes, TPM did not beat Titanic. Neither did Fellowship of the Ring (even though it had a bigger opening than Titanic). So, by your logic, Lord of the Rings is crap too. If we both agree that box office has little to do with a film's artistic quality, why bother wasting your time trying to prove TPM was a flop that only passed for a blockbuster because of the hype?
    TPM is the third most successful movie of all time, both in America and worldwide. Many people hated it, but a lot of people loved it too. Most of the people who love the film are not blind to its flaws, they just recognise that the good outweighed the bad. Understand?

    Anyway, back to my original topic. I don't think people couldn't understand the plot because they were distracted by all the CGI. Rather, I meant that some people (not necessarily anyone here) have a bias against CGI being used too much in films, so they dismissed any depth in TPM for this reason. For example, I've heard some critics dismiss all the CG character on principle, even well-developed ones like Watto. They just feel that a CG character doesn't belong in a live action movie, no matter how well it is animated.
    It's like how someone who hates all cartoons is unlikely to appreciate Toy Story or Shrek on an artistic level.
  11. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Just for the record, I don't think people were ganging up on me, we were all just trying to come to some kind of understanding.
  12. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
    Yeah. Actually, I was trying to stick up for him in case that's what it turned into.
  13. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    I'd just like to make it clear to Prunf8ce that I don't care if he bashes the OT on the OT forums. As far as I am concerned, you can do whatever you want. I am OK with the fact that you like TPM better than the OT, or whatever point you are trying to prove. But I can't speak for everyone, and some people do. If I were the moderator of the OT forum, I would not lock your posts, but guess what? I am not, and there is nothing I can do about it.
  14. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
    PruneF8ce, your antics amuse me. You're the gusher version of RBE, right?

    :D
  15. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    "I just want you guys to know one thing...I hate you guys, I hate you all so very, very much"-General Robert E. Lee (a.ka. cartman) writing home to Kyle and Stan



    Sorry, too much mushy love, respect and kindness going around. :D

    I believe that everyone here can agree on one thing: The title of the movie was Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menance.

    After that, the opinions branch out like a the Mighty Missippi when it reaches out to New Orleans.

    I don't think that Lucas failed with TPM. If he failed he would have gotten the numbers that A.I. did, which was a highly anticipated movie from two major film makers. Batman and Robin was a disaster.

    The over all story, most people understood it. The special Effects were so seamless, people couldn't tell what was CGI, what were minatures, Visual Effect, Special Effect and so on and so forth. What was left-since there were no distraction of bad special effect-was the story.

    What I think happened is that Lucas did not EXCELL with the story! He didn't totally blow us out of the water. I love the movie-but I didn't feel the same high as I did with ANH. Ever ESB didn't get me that same high. But for me TPM was almost as good as ESB and far superior to ROTJ.

    If I could use a analogy: TPM was like riding cross country in a brand new Lamborgini. During the trip, a stone cracked the windshield, somebody keyed the door, and Lucas pulled to close to the wall and scratched the fender. Now the Lamborgini got us cross country in style, with speed and excitment...but for some car enthusist- a marred Labrogini is a ruined vehicle. Others look at the Lamborgini and say..."Cool, I got a freakin' Lamborgini"

    Both are correct in their viewpoints.

  16. Darth-Mauls-Torso Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 1, 2001
    star 3
    Ugh.

    What a miserable basher/gusher wank fest. Now I remember why I don't come here anymore.
  17. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
    "Well... bye."

    (the bad guy in Tombstone)
  18. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    //Runs into the debate a little late....

    Yet that is precisely what TPM-haters do


    I've heard of TPM bashers and gushers, but what is this TPM-hater, is this a new breed of basher? Is there going to be a TPM-hater Sanctuary soon?



    Who were the people that went to the theaters 10 times in a row and raised the box office intake of the OT to make it a box office spectacle? SW fans.

    I'm not sure how old you are, Prune, but I'm going to have to debunk this. I have clear memories from the late 70's and early 80's of SW being well respected. After ROJ had it's run, it then became something "just for kids", but we're talking well after GL announcment that there were to be no new movies for years and years to come. And, the only remaining marketing left for SW was just targeting kids; the left over Kenner toys, Ewok/Droid cartoons, comic books, and rather goofy Ewok movies.


    --but it died off and the ones left are labeled "nerds".

    Yes, it did die off for a while, a long while, but this was after 1983, after the OT had it's run in the theater many times over.


    And who made the PT possible due to its success at the box office in the past? Fans. Just plain fans.

    Again, not true. I saw ANH-SE on opening day in the afternoon, and I was much surprised to see that my friends and I were the only ones there that fit the bill of "SW geeks." The audience was filled with "cool" (please note the quote marks) sports car drive'n, beer drink'n college students, and wealthy young lawyers taking the afternoon off (or so they appeared by their dress and manner). It was these same people who applauded everytime something new appeared on screen. These people who grew up with SW, though not red-blooded fans like the people on this board, have as much to do with its success as we do.


    Once again you don't have to like anything you don't want to. Just don't try and tell us we like it because we don't have any critical faculties.

    That is a fair request.


    I think you should question the film, but only if you are willing to figure out the answers.

    But this assume the answer leads to enjoying the film. I've yet to see anyone shed enlightment as to why I should love the bad pacing in TPM.


    and there's no way that AOTC will fix TPM's Jar Jar problem. Upstaging is upstaging, and there's not much that additional context can do to change that.

    Or the agonizingly bizzare pacing, or the ludicrious animation of Ben Quadrenaro.


    If I were to come back to Earth and argue with someone who tells me that after researching all the "facts", they still see the Earth as being flat, well obvioulsy, it is hard for me to agree with that.

    See, now, Go-Mer, you say you have respect for us, even though we disagree, then you use this rather insulting comparison two posts later. That is why you don't get along with us, not because you disagree, but because of how you disagree.



    "Why did he do that?" I have an answer.

    But many of your answers are based on opinions, and opinions vary from person to person, so just because we don't swollow them doesn't make us ignorant 14th Century villagers.


    I guess the reason I end up taking such a hard line appraoch, is I feel so alone with my opinions.

    Why? I thought poll after poll had proven that gushers are in the majority and that TPM was indeed a success and more people like it than not.


    Alot of those comments were starting to get very personal.

    Hopefully, none of my comments will be taken as personal.


    Anyway, back on topic: I don't understand this complaint about special effects. How are they taking away from the movie? The complaints I hear are "they upstage everything" and "they were over-used." No such thing. Would JJB be any less annoying if he was a green skinned human played by Amhad Best? Would the pacing of the movie be any better if GL had shied away from CGI? Oh, you may say "yes, if he'd not done the gungan battle at the movie's end"
  19. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    To enjoy the pacing, you first have to figure out why it isn't "bad".
  20. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    To enjoy the pacing, you first have to figure out why it isn't "bad".

    [face_laugh] ROTFLMAO!!!!! That's classic! Someone archive this.
  21. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    You know sometimes I amaze even myself...
  22. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
    I see dead people...
  23. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
  24. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    This thing has begun to exhaust me...I genuinely feel no malice towards Go_Mer or any other "gusher" (maybe one of the first things we should do is stop flinging these ridiculous labels at each other). I've actually rather enjoyed sparring with Go_Mer on this thread, so I hope no one thought I was being hostile.
  25. Malthus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 1999
    star 4
    It's inescapable, the labels I mean.

    Jeez, people, WE RESOLVED THIS ALREADY. LOL! Read pages 7 and 8 of this thread. We've got a whole page of latecomers (including an admin) to the party who think GMT is still taking some heat... read and understand.
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