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Census Is it ok to punch fascists in or around their face?

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ender Sai, Feb 2, 2017.

?

can - and indeed, *should*, you punch a fascist in their face?

  1. Yes, it's a proud tradition

    49 vote(s)
    68.1%
  2. I'M NOT RACIST BUT no I think it's infringing free speech, violence isn't the answer, etc

    23 vote(s)
    31.9%
  1. Dread Pirate Roberts

    Dread Pirate Roberts Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2017
    Ender you go after America like it was a date that stood you up on prom night. I’ll never understand it.

    And yes, I think America should have gone to war sooner. In fact, the exact moment is when they found out what Hitler was doing or planning to do
    to his own people.

    You can’t stomp out an ideology by killing its members. Ideas don’t go away, they linger. The only answer to a bad idea is a better idea. The moment violence becomes an acceptable method of dealing with ideas you don’t like, democracy as we know it will fall apart.
     
  2. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    I go there because had America not been cowardly (spoiler: it was) then millions of lives would've been spared. Non-violent indifference doesnt' save lives. And honestly? I'm happy for fascists to linger, afraid and underground, because fear of reprisal beatings and censorship leaves them feeling vulnerable. Let them hate, so long as they fear.
     
  3. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    JFC, Lindburgh's speech about "America First" (co-opted by someone recent, if only I could think of who it was...) in support of the American Nazi Party and explicitly warning Jews what would happen to them if we got involved was September 1941 (ironically, 70 years to the day before 9/11)... it's not like we didn't know what was going on by then, as we were turning back Jewish refugee ships in 1938...

    Ender's not wrong here. He'd probably be singing German if the Japanese didn't bomb us...
     
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  4. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Well then who's to say what's a good idea and what's a bad idea?
     
  5. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    So would you. Because it's not like anti-semitism didn't peak during that time. If you'd not been bombed you'd have probably welcomed nazis with open arms, as a nation.
     
  6. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    I wouldn't be singing anything at all. :p
     
  7. Dread Pirate Roberts

    Dread Pirate Roberts Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2017
    As long as you aren’t actively hurting people with your ideas, then it is pretty subjective which is better, ie capitalism v socialism. There is arguments for both sides.

    And yes @Ender Sai if the US had gotten involved earlier more lives would have been saved probably. But we have the benefit of hindsight. So it is easy to say what any country should have done.
     
    gezvader28 likes this.
  8. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    You can hardly blame the Yanks for Adolf . It was our fault : Europe , why we let him re-arm Germany is shameful , it was less than 20 years since The Great War .
    If I was an American in the 30's I reckon I'd be thinking : 'Hell didn't we bail 'em out just 20 years ago ? Now they've let another lunatic take over ? we've just come out of a severe economic depression and we're being asked to send our men overseas to die again ?'

    USA did help us and they did join the fight and as proud as I am of Britain for standing up against Hitler I'm just as grateful for the Americans who gave their lives as well .

    .
     
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  9. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Okay so what if we had this exchange:

    John: Blacks are people and should have equal rights as whites.
    Gary: No, blacks are not people and they shouldn't have rights.

    Who's right?
     
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  10. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Always love these arguments, as if you're not talking to someone from a country that got involved in 1939 before it was attacked.

    Think how many Allied lives would have been saved had the Americans an ounce of moral courage.

    Then tell me we shouldn't oppress fascists.
     
  11. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    I know where you're from Ender .

    What you say about Australia doesn't change what I said about America . You can't just blame americans for everything .
     
  12. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    I'm saying, that attitude had consequences and we should bloody well learn from it rather than repeating it.
     
    Outsourced likes this.
  13. Outsourced

    Outsourced Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    ^^

    Every country, and most of the individuals in said countries, has had issues in the past. No entity is perfect, and many of those follies are quite drastic. Regardless of whether I agree with Ender's argument, I will sing this particular quote from the mountain tops.
     
  14. Sarchet

    Sarchet Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2016
    As much as I think morally America should have gone to war in 1939 - WWII is one of the main eras I enjoy studying, and the state of our military is 1939 was terrible. Every airplane and tank we had was outclassed, our main artillery piece was a WWI design on rubber tyres for motorized towing, our cavalry divisions were still on horses. If we had entered the war in 1939 we would simply have lost even more men and material to little or no gain. There would have been an AEF lost in France in 1940 for sure.
     
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  15. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Didn't we already have this discussion elsewhere? The U.S. wasn't the only country that was reluctant to get involved. Britain and France didn't want to fight Germany when it was gobbling up its neighbors. Russia certainly didn't want to get involved, and in fact allied with the aggressors at the time. Brazil and Mexico didn't get involved until fairly late in the game, while Sweden and Turkey never joined the fight at all. Why pick on America as the only example of moral cowardice?

    This applies to today's world as well. How much quicker could the crisis in Yugoslavia or Syria or the South China Sea have been resolved if other non-western democracies had spoken up and lent their diplomatic weight towards punishing the aggressors and resolving the conflict? Our voice alone only counts for so much.
     
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  16. Dread Pirate Roberts

    Dread Pirate Roberts Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2017
    I’m not sure where you are going with this one. But I’ll take Johnny’s opinion.

    “Blacks are people” is hardly an idea, it is a fact that can be proven.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    If I’m going to pick on America for moral cowardice in the 30s and 40s, it will not be for “not getting involved” prior to 1941. It will be for two things:

    —turning away a ship full of Jewish refugees from Europe, returning them to their doom

    And

    —the Japanese internment camps

    The ostracization of German citizens during World War I, including Dr. Seuss’ family, was shameful and ridiculous as well.
     
  18. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    the point on the WWII thing was that we saw the consequences of trying to reason with fascism, and by the time it hits the awareness of the US body politic, there was literally no excuse for inaction.

    This is not a one-time historical moment. It's a lesson.
     
  19. Dread Pirate Roberts

    Dread Pirate Roberts Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2017
    Okay, so let’s take your idea. Fascists should be physically harmed for their beliefs, probably killed.

    Round them up, and kill them. Who does that sound like to you?
     
  20. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    It sounds like a small mind resorting to hyperbole because it wants to be David to a Goliath made entirely of straw?
     
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  21. Dread Pirate Roberts

    Dread Pirate Roberts Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2017
    Okay.

    So, fascists, should they be just physically harmed for their beliefs? Or killed. Because one sounds like murder, and the other like torture.
     
  22. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    An lo, mighty Dread Pirate David did smite the wicked straw Goliath, with naught but a stone from his sling...

    What I'm saying is that liberalism's tolerance is a weakness as well as a strength. Fascism by its nature is a violent, repressive, and illiberal ideology that thrives off exploiting division. We should not afford it the tolerances and protection of liberalism, demonising it, outlawing it, terrorising it, and driving it underground. Fascists should live in fear, as we secure our state from it.
     
  23. Dread Pirate Roberts

    Dread Pirate Roberts Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2017
    But it seems you would do to fascists what fascists do themselves. Rule by fear.

    I think if we were to do that, the idea of “we can destroy an idea by outlawing, and terrorising it” would spread, and that is the very nature of fascism itself.

    You propose dousing a fire with more fire.
     
  24. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Okay, so what if I were to hypothetically argue Gary's position. What is the definition of "people"? A member of the species homo sapiens? What if Gary were to argue that "the amount of genetic variation between black-skinned humans and white-skinned humans is sufficient enough that blacks should not have rights"? What should be the response to that?

    Where am I going with this? It's like you said, what constitutes a good idea or a bad idea is subjective. When it comes to a fundamental question like this, it only ends with one side laying down the law to the other...and if neither side backs down, the result is violence.
     
  25. Dread Pirate Roberts

    Dread Pirate Roberts Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2017
    You’ll have to forgive me, I have a small mind.

    But I’m still not seeing what you are saying. Is it that violence is inevitable? A government can create laws and enforce them, but that is justice. What we are talking about is vigilantes taking justice into their own hands.