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Lit Is it possible for books to retcon things from TCW?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Iron_lord, Aug 25, 2013.

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  1. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Inspired by a debate in the Episode VII forum, about how The Essential Atlas apparently retconned things from TCW, and a response that "It can't do that since TCW is higher canon".

    Thoughts?
     
  2. JackG

    JackG Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 15, 2011
    TCW is gone yet the EU remains. Let that be a clue to the answer.
     
  3. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz JC Head Admin & Community Manager star 8 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 21, 2002
    They can't contradict it, just like they can't contradict the movies. They can elaborate and expand upon it, though. Probably a fine line to walk.
     
    Mange likes this.
  4. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 9, 2007
    While TCW is probably second only to the movies in term of canon... hierarchy (?), unfortunately, with that mess finally over with (at least until Rebels start broadcasting), the EU can probably start patching some of the holes from it. While the movies and TCW are the highest form of canon, EU sources can occasionally change the interpretation of a lot... at least until Lucasfilm changes their ever-mercurial minds and stomp over the EU again (such as the Sundered Heart).

    It helps that despite TCW somehow seemingly randomly choosing some of the most confusing things to throw out (Khyber Crystal, Republic defending Cato Neimodia), TCW also doesn't bother with details often (or quality storytelling, or logic, or consistency and even its internal timeline is quite convoluted up, it would be funny if they ever released a complete set that arranged the episodes in chronological order rather than broadcast order for the hell of it), so it already allows the EU to patch up holes. The biggest problem during TCW was that even if something was fixed one season, the next season could disrupt it too (such as no more Lucrehulks, possibly until the Battle of Coruscant, and even then those might be edited out someday in a Special Edition). With the current lull, there's time. Quite often the supplementary material helped already, though even they can't do much about the quality of the show.
     
  5. General Immodet

    General Immodet Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 5, 2012
    I like it how newer Essential Guides and Source Books try to include both versions.
    Books most certainly can retcon or combine both visions.
    I think the appearance of Asajj Ventress during the Battle of Boz Pity might be the most difficult problem to fix.
     
  6. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 15, 2006
    Hell yeah the EU can retcon The Clone Wars. T-canon? Psshaw. C-canon has been retconning G-canon for more than a decade. Lucas was like "The Republic is a thousand years old!" and the EU was like "Nah, they were just talking about the Ruusan Reformation." Lucas was like "Anakin built C-3PO!" and the EU was like "Nah, he just rebuilt him."
     
  7. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 16, 2007
    Lucas was like "Dooku was Yoda's Padawan" and the EU was like "Actually that's not true at all." But apparently Lucas told them to do that, so even when someone else contradicts him, he's still contradicting himself. LOL Star Wars.
     
  8. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I think it was Legacy of the Jedi (2003) that introduced Thame Cerulian as Dooku's master.
     
  9. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 16, 2007
    Yeah I think so. I think in the ERC it says that Lucas told them to invent a new character to be Dooku's master though, despite what Yoda says in AOTC.
     
  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

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    Sep 2, 2012
    "I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself. I am large. I contain multitudes."

    Can't remember what that's actually from- but I've seen it pinched and used elsewhere a few times.

    EDIT: on looking it up- it was apparently a US poet called Walt Whitman.
     
  11. Mange

    Mange Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 11, 2003
    I don't see how that is an argument. TCW ran its course (and might be continued to some degree in Rebels), but how much (if anything) of the post-ROTJ EU that will work and remain canon after the ST remains to be seen.
     
    Darth_Martus and darklordoftech like this.
  12. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

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    Oct 23, 2004

    We so badly need another Essential Chronology down the line. :)
     
  13. Lugija

    Lugija Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 3, 2009
    You can't destroy the EU, for it would be like destroying an universe.
    You can't contradict the EU, for it will swallow you and make you part of it.
    You can't, for Waru.
     
  14. Todd the Jedi

    Todd the Jedi Mod and Soliloquist of SWTV star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 16, 2008
    The Last Jedi tackled both the Witches of Dathomir and Mandalore. Basically, after the end of the war, we get the ship embargo on Dathomir that's around in Courtship of Princess Leia, and the Nightsisters are also greatly diminished for now. As for Mandalore, Keldabe appears and is referred to as the Old Capital, which still leaves room for all of RepCom to have occurred, assuming those Mandos are so prideful that they wouldn't even acknowledge the existence of Sundari.
     
  15. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004

    Or they have different problems coming their way. ;)
     
  16. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 16, 2012
     
  17. blackmyron

    blackmyron Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 29, 2005
    Considering the track record of the people that regularly post in that forum? That could be taken as proof right there.

    The problem has always been that the canon system is for internal purposes. LFL determines what is canon on a case-by-case basis. The very fact that the original EU background of Grievous was not discarded despite the CWAS saying, definitively, that his background was radically different should tell you something right there.
    And a lot of time the EU 'contradicting' the CWAS or even the movies is based upon fan assumptions, not actual canon.
     
    HEDGESMFG likes this.
  18. LelalMekha

    LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 29, 2012
    The real solution is quite simple, and I've been professing it for years: TCW never happened.
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Ordo Skirata

    Ordo Skirata Jedi Knight star 2

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    Sep 3, 2012
    I always assumed that the EU coundn't contradict or retcon TCW outright, but that they could shape and twist so that it meshes with the current Expanded Universe. Like what Todd said, they didn't say TCW is wrong, but they shaped it so that it fit with the broader picture.
     
    Mange likes this.
  20. Bib Fartuna

    Bib Fartuna Jedi Knight star 4

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    Nov 4, 2012
    Why do I imagine Star Wars canon fought thusly?

    It is an eternal Chess match.

    On one side, the player is Leeland Chee. On the other side, the opponent changes with each turn, becoming a different novel, comic, cartoon writer.
     
  21. Zeta1127

    Zeta1127 Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I've been saying as much every since I found out how bad things really were, because it never interested me, TCW film was so far the only Star Wars "film" I never bothered to watch, even before I found out that it was screwing up the entire Clone Wars era.
     
    Bib Fartuna likes this.
  22. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 16, 2012
    I get the joke but I don't like the judgemental comment about Ahsoka's clothes
     
    jSarek likes this.
  23. Bib Fartuna

    Bib Fartuna Jedi Knight star 4

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    Nov 4, 2012
  24. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    Well, the Sundari Mandalorians refuse to acknowledge Keldabe's existence, so fair's fair.
     
  25. LelalMekha

    LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 29, 2012
    Just as I don't like skintight clothes and bare mid-riff on a 13-year-old, Togruta or not. I suppose we're both entitled to our opinion.
     
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