Is it really Lucas' fault?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by ST-TPM-ASF-TNE, Jul 11, 2002.

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  1. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    I'm not speaking to all "bashers" of course, but I know some do indeed blame Lucas for screwing up the PT (mainly TPM). Some say he has lost his touch, and that he screwed up the story. But is this really Lucas' fault?

    After ROTJ, I'm fairly certain there were no confirmed storylines for the PT, other than small things like it focusing more on Obi-Wan's story, seeing the Clone War, and such. But 16 years is a long time for fans to make up their own stories ahout what the prequals would look like, or feel like, or what would happen. Nothing was confirmed to happen in the PT. After TPM came out, fans who truely didn't like TPM, blamed it's failure on GL. But that brings me back to topic, is it all GL's fault, or to a further extent, the production crew of TPM? Some die hard fans have said storylines in TPM weren't rightly played out, but how can that be the fault of old GL? It isn't, it is the fan's fault. Some believed so much what the PT should have been, some just weren't ready for the story to be so different. But that isn't GL's fault, it's his story, and he did what he wanted with it.

    I am not complaining against the "basher" group, I'm just saying what I feel about some fans who blame GL for messing up TPM, simply because it didn't turn out how they wanted. I think one problem was that some fans didn't have open minds. Sure, I had visions of what the PT would look like, but I also had an open mind when I went to see TPM, and when my visions didn't turn out the way I had expected, I still loved TPM :D



    ST
  2. Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I agree with you, ST(as always)!

    I like surprises and I think that might be one reason why I love TPM.
  3. Oakessteve Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 9, 1999
    star 6
    Well, it's George Lucas's fault in the sense that fans had sixteen years of no Star Wars, which meant the only things fans could do was speculate on what might have happened in Episode I. Had George made Episode I in 1986, with exactly the same plot as the one in The Phantom Menace, I think people would have been more ready to accept it as part of the Star Wars universe, and there would be less of a divide among Star Wars fans. So, in a sense, it is George Lucas's fault.
  4. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    But Lucas needed to wait until the technology was up to par in order to tell the vision of the PT. And besides, I wouldn't have wanted TPM made in 1986, I need Ewan as Obi-Wan, and Portman as Pdame :D



    ST
  5. Oakessteve Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 9, 1999
    star 6
    Yes, I understand that, ST, credited me with a little intelligence, please, but what I was simply pointed out is that as fans had so long to wait for Episode I, you cannot blame them if how they envisioned it differs from what George Lucas intended. However, that would have been eliminated if George had bought about The Phantom Menace in 1986, as that way, fans would only have three years to speculate on what it would have been like.
  6. Patrick Russell Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    I think if it were merely a matter of unreachable expectations, there wouldn't be nearly as much support for AOTC. If everyone who was disappointed by TPM was also disappointed by AOTC, you might have a point. But they aren't. And it's not as though AOTC exactly followed the average imagined fan script, y'know? It certainly wasn't at all what I expected, and I really liked it. I was prepared to be similarly surprised and delighted by TPM, and it simply didn't happen.

    I'm not denying that some folks developed expectations for TPM that could never be met. What I am saying, though, is that IMHO this was only a small part of the overall problem.
  7. AgentCoop Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    Well, without getting once again into explaining that people just may have had problems with TPM that had nothing to with expecting Lucas to stick to "their version" of the story, let me just say that Lucas has no one to blame but himself for people thinking that TPM's version of "Star Wars" history is "wrong". The OT tells a very specific story and gives very specific hints as to what came before that story. In many ways TPM not only fails to follow through on those hints but also outright contradicts them. It is not unreasonable for fans to expect Lucas to stick to his own story.Lucas has been claiming all along that he has had this whole thing mapped out from the beginning, when that is clearly not the case. If it were, the loose ends would meet up without anyone having to force them. Instead, we are told that we have to see things "from a certain point of view" (and it was a dark day for "Star Wars" when Lucas coined that little plot-hole catch-all) for the saga to maintain any semblance of continuity. All this talk of Lucas once again going back and gutting the OT to somehow shoehorn it into place with the Prequels is still further proof that he is making a lot of this up as he goes and he's not all that good at it. These logistical contortions would be unnecessary if he had simply stuck to the details that he had already fed to the audience. I shudder to think at how Episode III is going to have to bend over backwards to cover all the ground that it needs to cover because so much of TPM was wasted on characters of relatively little importance to the larger story. All of these things are ultimately Lucas' decision and no one else's. He started the story and then he chose midway through to change it. If that's not Lucas' fault, I don't know whose it is.
  8. hawk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    I couldn't have put it better. You hit the nail right on the head Coop.
  9. Rabid_Balding_Ewok Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2000
    star 4
    well, it was Old Man George that gave us Ahmed Best as a intergalatic step 'n fetch it, quoting one of the Olsen twins from Full House aswell as Waynes World. Not to mention the whole fart and poop thing or the nine year old Anakin that wins the big race and wins the big war. If memory serves me correctly it was Georgie Boy that came up with such exciting characters as Captain Panaka and Queen Almonds or whatever her name was. Didn't George also think of the whole Force Messiah, Anakin being 3P0's father, Anakin getting into a fist fight with Greedo, another battle won by blowing up a reactor core. It's Uncle George's story, he should take credit for it don't you think. ;)

    -----signature-----
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    If there was an enemies list, you'd be on mine."
    [face_devil] [face_laugh] [face_devil] [face_laugh] [face_devil] [face_laugh]

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  10. hawk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    It's Queen Armadillo you fool
  11. Rabid_Balding_Ewok Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2000
    star 4
    *Ed Mcmahons voice* "You are correct, sir!"

    [image=http://www.tkstoystand.com/IMAGES/MEANIES/if_bb_queen_armadillo.jpg]

    [link=http://www.tkstoystand.com/PAGES/MEANIES/meanies_01.html]Queen Armadillo[/link] :p

    -----signature-----
    "Rabid Balding Ewok, you make me sick.
    If there was an enemies list, you'd be on mine."
    [face_devil] [face_laugh] [face_devil] [face_laugh] [face_devil] [face_laugh]

    :::*::(^^) :(^^) :::::::
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    :::/##(###.00#)#I ::::
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    ::/000{{{{www}}}}\:: Ewoks Will Eat You!
  12. The_Phantom_Menace Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 1
    ST-TPM, I like the PT as well, but your constantly gushy posts are getting tedious.
  13. hawk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Ahhhhh! RBE stumbled accross the first designs for the characters in Episode I. And who says Lucas doesn't listen to his yes men?
  14. SW3TheHolidaySpecial Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2001
    star 4
    I can't see how you could blame it on the production crew.Lucas is the director,ultimately everything is up to him.If it was his decision to makes this movie,of course it's his fault.
  15. Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Coop: Contradictions? Where? I´m curious.
  16. Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
  17. RamRed Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    How do any of you know for a fact that Lucas changed the SW story completely after the OT? How? It sounds as if you're trying to justify your disappointment. If you were disappointed, fine. Just admit that the PT didn't turn out as you had imagined it would be. As for me, I'm enjoying it very much.
  18. AgentCoop Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    I outlined my reasons for believing that Lucas clearly changed the story midway through in my above post.

    And as for the contradictions, I was hoping I wouldn't have to once again list the litany of ways that TPM contradicts the OT but I guess I'm stuck with it.

    In the OT, we are told that Anakin Skywalker was discovered by OBI-Wan Kenobi. That when Obi-Wan met Anakin he was already an accomplished pilot and that Obi-Wan was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. We are further told that Obi-Wan took it upon himself to train Anakin because he believed that he could train him as well as Yoda had trained Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan refers to Anakin as a "good friend".

    TPM's version is that Anakin Skywalker was discovered by Obi-Wan's Master, who is not Yoda but Qui-Gon Jinn. It is Qui-Gon who is impressed with Anakin's abilities and insists upon his training. Obi-Wan not only shows no interest whatsoever in Anakin, but only interacts directly with him twice in the entire film. It is only when Qui-Gon is struck down that he convinces Obi-Wan to train Anakin. Furthermore, Obi-Wan never even witnesses Anakin's iffy "piloting" skills. Their friendship is nonexistant in TPM.

    Yes, I know, it works "from a certain point of view". Well, that's not good enough. It's not clever and it's not interesting. It's lazy storytelling.
  19. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    Nowhere in the OT does it say Obi-Wan discovered Anakin. Nothing states this. There is also the argument that Obi-Wan was indeed amazed at how strong the force was with him. Just look at how surprised he is when he reads the midichlorian count Anakin has.

    The only thing you I would consider you having as an argument is the idea that Obi-Wan took it upon himself to train Anakin.

    So no, it isn't lazy storytelling, it's just not the way you wanted the story to be told. :)



    ST
  20. AgentCoop Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    I guess you're right. I wanted the story to be told in a way that coincided with the OT, and it wasn't.

    And it is lazy storytelling when the audience has to sit there and go "Hmmm, well maybe this exciting scene of Obi-Wan looking at a computer screen is what he means when he says he was amazed by how strong the Force was with Anakin. Yeah, that's the ticket. That works. I guess."
  21. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    You know that scene works out. Just admit it ;)



    ST
  22. AgentCoop Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    *OW!* Stop twisting my arm!
  23. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    I'll break if I have to. Admit it ;)



    ST
  24. Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Yes, it does work. Very well.

    ST is right(as always ;) ), Obi-Wan never said he found Anakin and he never said he took the training upon himself BECAUSE he thought he would be as good as Yoda.
    Obi-Wan thought Anakin was a great pilot because he singlehandedly blowed up the droid control ship. You wouldn´t expect Anakin to tell everybody he did it by "accident"?
    And if Obi-Wan didn´t feel Anakin´s strong connection with the Force, I seriously doubt his skill as a Jedi.

    BTW, have you seen AOTC? I think you have. There are some scenes in it that clearly show friendship between the two. Maybe they weren´t the best of friends, but they had a close father/son-relationship and I don´t think Obi-Wan realised how hard he was on the boy. If he did, he wouldn´t be that way. Anyway, compared to what will happen between Ani and Obi in EpIII, the AOTC-relationship will definitely pass for friendship. At least from Obi-Wan´s point of view ;)
  25. AgentCoop Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    I have seen AOTC. I didn't bring it up because that wasn't the topic. But since you did:

    Yes. In AOTC there is a bond of friendship between Anakin and Obi-Wan, but it has already begun to show signs of strain. Unfortunately, most of their relationship has occurred off-screen because Lucas chose to squander TPM on Qui-Gon and Jar-Jar.

    "[H]e never said he took the training upon himself BECAUSE he thought he would be as good as Yoda."

    Er, maybe you need to go back and re-watch the OT, because that is exactly what Obi-Wan says.
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