Is it really Lucas' fault?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by ST-TPM-ASF-TNE, Jul 11, 2002.

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  1. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    What about TPM against "Magnum Force", the second entry in the Dirty Harry franchise?
  2. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Well there are a lot of in's a lot of out's and a lot of what have you's, that make that comparison virtually impossible.
  3. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>But SRN, there is a scene in the TPM documentary I believe, in which TMRFE discusses how you have to draw a line or something, or else a production takes forever.

    "TMRFE"?

    >>>There was a sign on the door at ILM that said "This movie comes out on May 16th 1999, no matter what." and then, just below, "-- Rick McCallum". That's such a dumb sign to put up, not to mention how egotistical it is to make it look like it was quoted from a flipping book of proverbs or something. Oh, Rick.

    Well, I figured that Lucas was well aware of the effect that the countless constraints he had in 1977 (although at the time, compared to most filmmakers he had a free rein to do whatever he wanted after the success of American Graffitti, he still had limited technology for effects, limited budget etc. etc.) that he figured that he needed something to give himself some sort of discipline.

    Pure speculation of course, but remember, this is the man who sat down to write a movie and wrote 12...
  4. Jedi-Monkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2002
    star 4
    Is The Phantom Menace a better film than Apocalypse Now?

    In whose opinion? I think it is, but that's probably because I enjoy TPM more. I can sit down and watch it more than once every ten years or so.
  5. NadaDevotchka Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2003
    star 1
    TokyoXtreme: Is The Phantom Menace a better film than Apocalypse Now?


    Go-Mer-Tonic: I would say they are both up there. There is too much going for both of them to say one is better, not to mention they are both very different kinds of films, which makes comparisons vague at best.



    AHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAHA!!!!!!

    I mean really. I actually laughed when I read this. If you go up to George Lucas himself and ask him this question, he'd straight up tell you that his movie isn't even in the same ballpark as Apocalypse Now, quality-wise. So why are the Lucas diehards so unwilling to admit to even the most obvious and common sense things? I mean what's next? You going to tell me TPM is right up there with Citizen Kane or A Clockwork Orange? Perspective is necessary here.
  6. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    So why are the Lucas diehards so unwilling to admit to even the most obvious and common sense things? I mean what's next? You going to tell me TPM is right up there with Citizen Kane or A Clockwork Orange? Perspective is necessary here

    Everybody has a different opinion. I could say TPM is better than The Godfather and that wouldn't make me wrong. That would just mean I have a different opinion, than say, yours.

    I personally think all five SW films are the best films ever made. That doesn't mean I'm unwilling to admit commo sense. That's just childish.
  7. NadaDevotchka Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2003
    star 1
    Saying, with complete conviction, that The Phantom Menace is better than The Godfather wouldn't make you wrong, but it would undermine any possible credibility you had or wished to have regarding film criticism and taste in film.
  8. Lanky Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2002
    star 4
    but it would undermine any possible credibility you had or wished to have regarding film criticism and taste in film.

    Why? Because it isn't following the crowd?
  9. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    but it would undermine any possible credibility you had or wished to have regarding film criticism and taste in film

    Only in your eyes.
  10. Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 4
    FYI, "TMFRE" is The Man Responsible For Everything, George Lucas.

    Thank Anthony Daniels' SW Insider column for that little acronym.


    I can't believe people are still rationalizing wooden acting by saying it was intended by Lucas "to represent the more formal situations and people."

    Obi-Wan and Yoda were both Jedi in the OT, just like the PT, but they were amusing, kind, and REAL (as real as a muppet can be, in Yoda's case) characters.

    Now it's "Around the survivors a perimeter create!" and "I hate it when he does that."


    And Dex's Diner, and the Bear Clan scene. I think the prequels do show Obi-Wan and Yoda as compassionate, human characters. But you want to ignore those scenes that give creedence to my assertion.
  11. NadaDevotchka Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2003
    star 1
    Your assertion must not have asserted itself very well.


    As for these...


    Why? Because it isn't following the crowd?

    Uh, no. Because people who know good films know that all the films I listed are, and that TPM is not. Sometimes the crowd forms for a reason. I've seen all the films in question several times, and own all of them, and indeed, TPM is not in the same league as any of them.



    Only in your eyes.

    In my eyes, the eyes of every professional critic, and the eyes of 99% of filmgoers.

    But "only."
  12. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    Uh, no. Because people who know good films know that all the films I listed are, and that TPM is not. Sometimes the crowd forms for a reason. I've seen all the films in question several times, and own all of them, and indeed, TPM is not in the same league as any of them

    You speak for yourself and yourself only. You have no clue what filmgoers think, so don't speak for them. Only for yourself.

    I think that I have good taste in film. I like all of those "superior" movies you listed. I just happen to like Star Wars more than them.

    Why does that make me any less credible than the next guy. If a professional film critic does not like The Godfather, but liked Citizen Cane, does that mean he has no "taste" in "good" films either?
  13. JediSpeedos Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2002
    star 1
    The general public is fickle. It's the "in" thing to bash TPM. Some of these folks don't even realize the little boy is Darth Vader.

    I'm sorry to burst the bubble of the high-brow critics who can't rationalize that the "faults" of TPM have always been with the franchise from the beginning. If anyone says anything different, you're not paying attention.

  14. NadaDevotchka Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2003
    star 1
    You speak for yourself and yourself only. You have no clue what filmgoers think, so don't speak for them. Only for yourself.

    Actually, I do have a clue. Go to IMDB and check the average rating, the user comments, and the external reviews for all the films in question. Those are filmgoers, friend.



    Why does that make me any less credible than the next guy. If a professional film critic does not like The Godfather, but liked Citizen Cane, does that mean he has no "taste" in "good" films either?

    It would, but then again, I've read a lot of reviews on alot of classic films from myriad critics, and I've yet to find one who ripped The Godfather, so it's a moot point.
  15. NadaDevotchka Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2003
    star 1
    The general public is fickle. It's the "in" thing to bash TPM. Some of these folks don't even realize the little boy is Darth Vader.

    What the hell? I'm pretty sure a lack of familiarity with the ins and outs of the universe has nothing to do with TPM bashing from critics and audiences. As for it being "in" to bash TPM, that's laughable. TPM has never been anything but a bashable entity but it has nothing to do with trends in opinion and everything to do with poor filmmaking and an overly hyped artistic disappointment.


    I'm sorry to burst the bubble of the high-brow critics who can't rationalize that the "faults" of TPM have always been with the franchise from the beginning. If anyone says anything different, you're not paying attention.

    Ridiculous. The faults of TPM that caused it to be a bad film are not in the OT. They are unique to the prequels.
  16. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
  17. JediSpeedos Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2002
    star 1
    Believe what you want to believe Nada. After TPM's initial release, there were many folks singing the film's praises. Now that time has waned, and those outspoken critics tried to relay the message that the film was a disappointment of epic proportions, there are people who don't even realize what they're saying anymore when it comes to insulting the film.

    Take your rose-colored glasses off. The faults of the PT are in the OT.

    Bottom line is, George achieved what he wanted to with TPM. As an introduction to the characters of the saga, it more than made its mark. Luckily, George had it in him to pound out another fantastic episode after all those years out of the director's chair.
  18. NadaDevotchka Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2003
    star 1
    After TPM's initial release, there were many folks singing the film's praises. Now that time has waned, and those outspoken critics tried to relay the message that the film was a disappointment of epic proportions, there are people who don't even realize what they're saying anymore when it comes to insulting the film.

    Your lie is easily able to be disproven, again by consulting the IMDB external review for TPM, which were scathing to lukewarm almost across the board upon initial release. Or did you forget the fact that both Time and Newsweek titled their reviews "The Phantom Movie"? The only critic who praised TPM was Roger Ebert, who at the time made excuses for the poor dialogue and characterization, assuming that the next two episodes would pick up the slack. When Episode 2 failed to do so, he ripped it.


    Take your rose-colored glasses off. The faults of the PT are in the OT.

    Reviews say otherwise, along with the fact that I can simply watch them all and realize that the OT is better than the PT.


    Bottom line is, George achieved what he wanted to with TPM. As an introduction to the characters of the saga, it more than made its mark. Luckily, George had it in him to pound out another fantastic episode after all those years out of the director's chair.

    He didn't achieve anything artistically important with TPM, and he's admitted as much. It was an artistic failure.
  19. JediSpeedos Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2002
    star 1
    Ahem, the ONLY critic that praised TPM was Roger Ebert? Nope. Check Rotten Tomatoes. Ironic the film has a fresh rating. And, besides, I was referring to the general public. Most of my friends loved it.

    As for George saying TPM was an artistic failure...provide some evidence, preferably a quote. He's never said that.
  20. JediSpeedos Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2002
    star 1
  21. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    David Ansen of Newsweek wrote that "review" of TPM and put it out a week before TPM came out, something he had signed a contract with Lucasfilm not to do in exchange for seeing the film early.

    If the guy simply knocked the film, I wouldn't discount it, but he proves through his review that he didn't even understand what was going on in the film most of the time.

    He actually had the nerve to question why Sidious would send Maul to kill Amidala. I don't mind well reasoned reviews, but it is obvious that the ones that were released a week early despite these signed contracts were not reviewing the film, they were sabotaging it to the best of their abilities.
  22. NadaDevotchka Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2003
    star 1
    And, besides, I was referring to the general public. Most of my friends loved it.

    You think your (undoubtedly high number of)friends are representative of the general public? That seems a tad naive.


    David Ansen of Newsweek wrote that "review" of TPM and put it out a week before TPM came out, something he had signed a contract with Lucasfilm not to do in exchange for seeing the film early.

    Are you joking with this? Whenever he published the review, it was valid. He's a very well-respected film critic, and his review cracks me up to this day. I love the quote of his describing the blah political dialogue..."It's all very edifying...like school." He got in some great jabs.


    If the guy simply knocked the film, I wouldn't discount it, but he proves through his review that he didn't even understand what was going on in the film most of the time.

    I'm sorry, I'll trust the ability of a well-respected major film critic to understand a film and review it long before I trust the opinion of a diehard Lucas supporter with no credentials in film criticism.


    He actually had the nerve to question why Sidious would send Maul to kill Amidala.

    You mean like every other sensible person who saw the movie and paid attention does? This is plot inconsistency, and the fact that he caught it on first viewing shows, more than anything, that he was paying CLOSE attention to the film.


    I don't mind well reasoned reviews, but it is obvious that the ones that were released a week early despite these signed contracts were not reviewing the film, they were sabotaging it to the best of their abilities.

    There was no need to sabotage a train wreck of a movie like TPM was. The most telling fact of all is that Lucasfilm didn't want the film reviewed early...or did you conveniantly not notice that? Studios often do that with films that have a ton of hype and absolutely no quality.
  23. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    Incidentally, why did Sidious send Maul to kill Amidala at the end of TPM? Because the climax demanded a saber battle?
  24. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Go-Mer (before): David Ansen of Newsweek wrote that "review" of TPM and put it out a week before TPM came out, something he had signed a contract with Lucasfilm not to do in exchange for seeing the film early.

    NadaDevotchka: Are you joking with this? Whenever he published the review, it was valid. He's a very well respected film critic, and his review cracks me up to this day. I love the quote of his describing the blah political dialogue..."It's all very edifying...like school." He got in some great jabs.
    />
    Go-Mer (before): If the guy simply knocked the film, I wouldn't discount it, but he proves through his review that he didn't even understand what was going on in the film most of the time.

    NadaDevotchka: I'm sorry, I'll trust the ability of a well-respected major film critic to understand a film and review it long before I trust the opinion of a diehard Lucas supporter with no credentials in film criticism.
    />
    Go-Mer (before): He actually had the nerve to question why Sidious would send Maul to kill Amidala.

    NadaDevotchka: You mean like every other sensible person who saw the movie and paid attention does? This is plot inconsistency, and the fact that he caught it on first viewing shows, more than anything, that he was paying CLOSE attention to the film.
    />
    Go-Mer (before): I don't mind well reasoned reviews, but it is obvious to me, that the ones that were released a week early despite these signed contracts were not reviewing the film, they were sabotaging it to the best of their abilities.

    NadaDevotchka: There was no need to sabotage a train wreck of a movie like TPM was. The most telling fact of all is that Lucasfilm didn't want the film reviewed early...or did you conveniently not notice that? Studios often do that with films that have a ton of hype and absolutely no quality.
    />
/>/>/>/>/>/>/>
  • Jedi-Monkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2002
    star 4
    Wow. I was taking some advice and staying out of here for a few days, and man did things get...FUNNY!

    I mean really. I actually laughed when I read this. If you go up to George Lucas himself and ask him this question, he'd straight up tell you that his movie isn't even in the same ballpark as Apocalypse Now, quality-wise. So why are the Lucas diehards so unwilling to admit to even the most obvious and common sense things? I mean what's next? You going to tell me TPM is right up there with Citizen Kane or A Clockwork Orange? Perspective is necessary here.

    Can we take this to mean you know Mr. Lucas personally? You seem to think you know his mind, so that would imply some sort of close relationship. Can you get me his autograph?

    What perspective? It seems to me that what you are saying is anyone who doesn't agree with your perspective is obviously wrong, and knows absolutely nothing about movies. It doesn't seem to matter what people like. If that's not what you're saying, I apologize, but it certainly does sound like it.

    Is Titanic a better movie than The Godfather? I don't think so. I don't think Titanic is better than Son-in-Law with Pauly Shore. Is 2001 better than Citizen Kane? What's the criteria for 'better'? Each one has plenty of fans, plenty of merits, so which is better? It all comes down to what you enjoy.

    And exactly what is obvious and common sense? That not everyone agrees with you, and your distorted view of things? Thanks for insulting everyone who doesn't think like you. Seig Heil!

    Saying, with complete conviction, that The Phantom Menace is better than The Godfather wouldn't make you wrong, but it would undermine any possible credibility you had or wished to have regarding film criticism and taste in film.

    That would be in your opinion only. The whole point of taste in film is that it's subjective. Everyone's taste is different, and none is better than anyone else's. I'm not saying that my taste is better than yours, only different. I would appreciate the same courtesy. Stop insinuating that we are not as smart as you because we don't share your point of view.

    Uh, no. Because people who know good films know that all the films I listed are, and that TPM is not. Sometimes the crowd forms for a reason. I've seen all the films in question several times, and own all of them, and indeed, TPM is not in the same league as any of them.

    Yes, sometimes the crowd does form for a reason. Like people wanting something to belong to. People want to be part of the 'in' crowd, and currently, the 'in' crowd wants to bash Star Wars.

    And could you be more insulting? People who know good films? By implication there, anyone who actually liked this movie that you didn't doesn't know good film. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I'm just gonna sit here and wait for this person's warning. I've seen many 'gushers' warned for posts like this, so in the interests of fairness it should happen soon.

    In my eyes, the eyes of every professional critic, and the eyes of 99% of filmgoers.

    99% huh? I suppose you handled the exit polls at all the theaters around the world yourself? You seem awfully sure of that statement, but offer little proof to back it up.

    "Professional critic" is almost an oxymoron. All they are doing is giving their opinion of something. So what if they get paid for it. That doesn't mean they know everything, or can accurately judge the quality of a subjective medium.

    By the way, Roger Ebert, one of the most well-known, and arguably one of the most respected critics in the country, gave TPM a positive review. Are you now going to say that HE doesn't know anything about movies?

    Actually, I do have a clue. Go to IMDB and check the average rating, the user comments, and the external reviews for all the films in question. Those are filmgoers, friend.

    You DO realize that a VERY SMALL percentage of the movie-going public actually visits sites like IMDb, right? I know a lot of people who go to movies. I know maybe
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