Is it really Lucas' fault?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by ST-TPM-ASF-TNE, Jul 11, 2002.

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  1. TheAnointedOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2002
    star 2
    Let me just clarify that I am not arrogant enough to think that just because I wasn't pleased with TPM, that it is necesarily a bad movie. I just wasn't happy with it. I'm only saying that to those who were displeased with the movie, it is certainly not their fault. Lucas made a bad movie (TPM) to me. I think it could have been much better and the only reason I watched it, was because it was a star wars movie and I'm a big fan of the originals.

    It's obvious that a large number of people were disappointed with the movie and I think that is Lucas' fault becasue he strayed from the feel of the originals, I don't think that is debatable. He gambled on that and I don't think it payed off.
  2. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    It is Lucas' fault, in that these movies are his creation. But I don't think he is worried about those of you who were let down. There were enough of us who appreciated what he did that the ones who don't aren't his concern.

    Just like it was with the classic trilogy.
  3. BabaORileyFett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2002
    star 4
    "It's obvious that a large number of people were disappointed with the movie and I think that is Lucas' fault becasue he strayed from the feel of the originals, I don't think that is debatable. He gambled on that and I don't think it payed off."

    There was also a large number of people (if not larger) that loved TPM, so Lucas must've done something right, too.

    For those that don't like TPM, I'm not saying it's their fault. It's the people that don't like TPM and say things such as Lucas "has lost it", "should've done this or that" to "fix" all the problems that really irk me. Why should he change TPM to please the dissatisfied fanbase? Giving in to the criticism only to "please" a section of your fanbase isn't art. That's called selling out.
  4. Jedi_Waster Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    star 2
    There lies the crux of the problem (you obviously missed the subtle hints in my post so I'll spell it out for you)

    LUCAS NO LONGER HAS TASTE

    20 years of money, power and then a divorce has twisted him so much that he has lost touch with what made the OT so good.

    "he makes these films for himself and his fans."

    Subsistute 'fans' for ass-kissers and I wholeheartedly agree with you. They are his fans, they're just not SW fans...
  5. BabaORileyFett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2002
    star 4
    "Subsistute 'fans' for ass-kissers and I wholeheartedly agree with you. They are his fans, they're just not SW fans..."

    Says who? You? So you're a SW fan and the TPM fans aren't? Wow, what a bunch of crockery.

    Your opinion is not above all others. Get off your high horse.

  6. TheAnointedOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2002
    star 2
    Well, the thing is that Lucas didn't make a bad movie in comparison to the average movie. But he did make a movie, when compared to the OT, doesn't measure up. I'm just holding the bar up to where Lucas placed it.

    Now, many of the suggestions that people have made on this forum are good suggestions and if Lucas had incorporated them, you guys would have loved it. But because someone here suggested it, you hate it. Why be so closed mined?
  7. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    It does measure up to the Classic Trilogy, in many ways it suprasses it.

    I don't hate your alternate suggestions, I just like the way Lucas has done it better. He is way is much more poetic all the way around IMHO.
  8. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    Subsistute 'fans' for ass-kissers and I wholeheartedly agree with you. They are his fans, they're just not SW fans...

    Don't presume to tell people you don't know that they aren't SW fans.

    I love TPM and AOTC as much as ANH, TESB, and ROTJ. So do many other people. Why are they not SW fans? They're tastes differ, that doesn't make them any less of a fan.
  9. BabaORileyFett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2002
    star 4
    Now I'm close-minded. Talk about jumping the gun.

    Can I label you as being a close-minded individual because you didn't agree with the direction Lucas chose to take TPM in?
  10. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    All right guys, take it easy, we are all fans here. We just have different perspectives on the new trilogy.
  11. Jedi_Waster Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    star 2
    "Don't presume to tell people you don't know that they aren't SW fans."

    Just twisting Go-Mer's words. Get a hold of yourself, it's not like I've said that god doesn't exist.

    "Get off your high horse."

    It is pretty high isn't it? Thanks.
  12. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    Yep Go-Mer :D

    Get a hold of myself? I replied back to your post in a calm manner. Please don't make it sound like it's a bigger issue than that :D
  13. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    As a gusher, I would say the only fault of Lucas was letting all those annotated screenplays get published, which caused people to develop thier assumptions of what the PT would be like.
  14. Jedi_Waster Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    star 2
    Its ironic that much of the PT relies on the audience making assumptions about the plot and relationships between characters... if you're proven wrong by episode 3, will you too finally see how GL is rewriting the OT?
  15. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Proven wrong about what?
  16. WSBurroughs Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    First off, everywhere I go, talking to random people about the prequels, there is an alarming rate that agree that, so far, they are amonst the worst films ever made. Just because it has Star Wars slapped on the title, does not automaticly grant it immuinity from consturtive critisiism.

    The common thread that bases our dissatisfation with the prequels is the lack of storytelling/flimmaking with Lucas. Amazingly enough, only online do I find people singing the (so called) praises of the prequels. Everywhere else, so many people are severly dissapointed.

    There are those out there, who acutaly like it. Many times the "gushers" claim, in thier posts, Star Wars is singualrly his vision. With that in mind, either its sucess or failure resides on his shoulders.
  17. WSBurroughs Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    I still cannot see how the failure of Phantom Mess is the "bashers" fault for recognizing bad film making for what it is.
  18. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    That's probably why you think it's bad film making. From where some of us sit, the prequels have been great so far.
  19. BabaORileyFett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2002
    star 4
    "First off, everywhere I go, talking to random people about the prequels, there is an alarming rate that agree that, so far, they are amonst the worst films ever made. Just because it has Star Wars slapped on the title, does not automaticly grant it immuinity from consturtive critisiism"

    Did you complete a scientific survey proving that the majority of folks that saw TPM hated it? Guess what? I know folks that liked TPM, some that even loved it. Does that mean my opinion is above the person's who didn't feel the same way?

    The fact is, TPM, and the PT, is George's vision, no matter what others may think of it. If George has "lost his touch", that hasn't deterred from my enjoyment of the lastest SW films in the least.

    Is TPM perfect? No. Is it the epitome of hallmark filmmaking? Not a chance. But it is undoubtedly an imaginative piece of cinema, one that is a fun ride from the opening crawl all the way to the celebration on Naboo. It's a swashbuckler helmed in the classic, grand SW style.
  20. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    All I know is that in the summer of 1999 when it came out, I only found two or three people who didnt like it. All the other people I talked to about it liked it. It wasnt until about 6 months before AOTC came out that I found out about "how many people hated it".
  21. Indy2 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2000
    star 4
    The film is limp.

    All but zero excitement, except for few moments in the pod race and end duel.

    The film is for eight year olds or with that level of intelligence.

    deadpan dialogue. zero emotion.

    better to try and ignore it for the most part and watch a good sw film like AOTC.



  22. augusto Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 4
    It's a really good movie, but AOTC is better.
  23. scruffy-lookin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2001
    star 3
    in the summer of 1999 when it came out, I only found two or three people who didnt like it

    In the last three years I've talked with literally hundreds of people when the subject of TPM has come up and (one thing leading to another, movies to Star Wars, Star Wars to TPM) I can only recall two people who liked TPM. One was a guy I met briefly while travelling in Canada and the other was a twelve year old. I'm certainly not claiming that my observations are scientific just that in the (fairly wide ) circles I travel in TPM fans seem to be a little thin on the ground ( to the point where I often find myself defending certain (small) parts of the film).

    I was re-reading Tolkien's foreword in my Lord of the Rings compendium the other day and I noticed that when he had finished he went back to the start and basically re-wrote it. I think the biggest fault of the PT (and one that I'll admit the OT suffers from on occasion) is that the story wasn't finished before it was filmed. I think that would have done wonders for the flow of the three as a trilogy and for the major character's arcs.
  24. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    The only thing that anecdotal evidence proves is that people have different experiences - mine happened to be that most people in my circle of friends didn't like it.

    Let's avoid discussions of each other's fandom, accusations of sycophantism, and other such personal attacks. Fundamentally, GL gave the final okay for a film that polarized the fanbase, so he gets credit for everything that unites us and blame for everything that divides us, since he is the alpha and the omega of the SW universe.
  25. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    True but we can't give Lucas the credit for everything that goes right anymore than we can blame him for everything that goes wrong. SW has always involved hundreds of talented artists including animators, actors and costume designers. We could only give Lucas credit for all the success and failures if he wrote, directed, acted, built...(and so on) everything in the saga.

    And before GMT jumps in with "But he decides on the final vision", I could easily stand around choosing a chef's selection of his finest foods and deciding which to serve to a client. That does not mean I am behind the talent of the cooking.
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