Is it really Lucas' fault?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by ST-TPM-ASF-TNE, Jul 11, 2002.

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  1. Ekenobi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    DrEvazan
    If you go by your protagonist thoery then the OT does not have a centralized one either. So what is you point then?
  2. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    but TPM has no main character. in the OT luke is clearly the protagonist. there are other main characters but luke is the one for the audience to follow.

    who is the protagonist in TPM? annakin? obi? padme? whos story is this? no ones... it is a story with no protagonist so the audience is left with nothing to connect to. and that is 100% lucas's fault.
  3. Ekenobi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    What about the droids? They were the focus of the first part? Obi-Wan? Then Han Solo? There seemed to be many main characters in the OT
  4. Ekenobi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    And if you follow it to conclusion you could say Qui-Gon was the main character in TPM. He was the focus of the story on things that he did more then any other character. Audience followed where he went and what he did. The ESB the main character I believe is not just Luke. The focus is split between Luke's training and the Han/Leia story. So there is no real main focus there either.
  5. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    QUI GON IS THE CENTRAL CHARACTER IN TPM.

    You know, that guy you guys think TPM could have done without?
  6. Ekenobi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    In AOTC the main focus is split once again. You follow Obi-Wan in his investigation and also Anakin/Padme' story. So to me Lucas is doing the same thing he did in the OT.
    You can also say Akakin is the main character of the PT. We are actually following his down fall to the Dark side. So the focus is on Anakin. It is being done the same way the OT is being done.
  7. WSBurroughs Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    Yes, The Phantom Mess could have easily done enterily wihtout Qui Gon. Lucas could have, then, focused on the main character the whole saga is about; Anikin.

    If ep I is to be the introduciton to the whole saga, why bother to follow a character that is going to die right off? Your predictable, cheap cop-out would be that he intrduced Anikin. Qui Gon does, but, why do you need him to do that? Why cant Obi Wan? Or cant Anikin be introduced himself?

    Too much clutter and waste of time ditracting from the whole story. Bad writing, bad contiuity.
  8. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    No, The Phantom Menace could not have easily done wihtout Qui Gon. He is the man character of Episode I, and is an important part of Anakin's development, which is plagued by paternal figures leaving him all alone. That is why it is important to follow a character that dies right off. Of course he does also introduce Anakin, which Obi-Wan could have done I guess, but what Obi-Wan can't do on his own is set a precedence of doing the wrong things for the right reasons. Not if he is to be the straight arrow depiction of a Jedi Knight at the height of the order.

    What you call "too much clutter" is actually intricate detail regarding the golden age of the Republic. It's actually great writing and wonderful continuity.

    And by the way you still have yet to address that moster post I spent the better part of an evening writing. I even spell checked the portions I quoted from you.
  9. WSBurroughs Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    Just read the Bashers haven for my replies to my massive post.

    BTW; introducing yet another character is not intracate detail. Just more clutter and a waste of time. When I re write the PT, Qui gon does not even exist. Obi Wan finds and trains a 17 to 20 year old Anikin. We actualy get to see a strong friendship between the two. Not a handshake, follwed by strained commments and whiney bitterness.
  10. Jedi_Waster Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    star 2
    Thanks gomer for your response to my post.

    I think the mythology coming into play with Anakin's birth is an excellent idea. But I think it came across as too christian for my tastes. Speaking of which, are there any greek/roman myths and legends that feature similar birthings? I thought most of them were a result of divine intervention as the gods actually have sex with these women in another shape (bull, swan etc.) Perhaps its the way in which Shmi reveals it to us... it just seems a little convenient that I wonder if GL is going to pull the "certain point of view" device again. Do you think it will be revealed? Could QuiGon be wrong about the "convergence of the force" or whatever it was?

    I asked if you believed in god because I was interested in how you phrased the Hercules origin being "badly written". If you believe in god, its naive and delusional to think that Zeus did not exist as well.

    Like you, I also believe in a higher being or beings. They came, they dabbled in genetics, they left. And everynow and then they turn up to help as on the next stage of our evolution. Whatever he is, he certainly isn't a nice rosary Sean Connery looking dude riding around on nimbus (though I could worship him)

  11. WSBurroughs Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    Ekenobi
    Dude; ESB's protaginst is Luke all the way thorough. There may be a point in the story where the characters seprate, but everything ties in at the end with them through out the whole film - and is neatly tied together at the climax. Every point is strongly refrenced towards the protaginist in the OT's. When you have one protaginist too many, nothing happens. There is no time nor affirmation of the characters to engage with. Just a bunch of characters that run into eachother now and then to confuse the story(s)
  12. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I am not allowed in the basher's sanctuary because nobody in there wants to see the prequels in a positive light.

    So, I ask you again to respond to my points which were made in this thread.
  13. Ekenobi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    I feel Leia and Solo are protagonist as well. It is about Luke becoming a Jedi, but there are other main characters as well going through this adventure with him. Not solely focused on him. If it was solely Luke, there would not be other characters in it. Just about Luke and his rise as a Jedi.
  14. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Jedi_Waster: I asked if you believed in god because I was interested in how you phrased the Hercules origin being "badly written". If you believe in god, its naive and delusional to think that Zeus did not exist as well.
    />

    When he created the Force, he set out to create a religious element for his story that took a lot of the common strands of all religions here on Earth to come up with one that could represent it all.

    To this day you have people who are Christian in nature telling us how the Force in the classic trilogy relates to them, while Buhdists do the same thing. And both of them are right really./>/>
  15. rpeugh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    "TPM could have done without Quigon."

    This is like saying that ANH could have done without Obiwan. Why dont we just have Yoda living on Tatooine instead of Obiwan? THen Luke could find Yoda, and Yoda could teach Luke the ways of the force. We could have had Obiwan killed in episode 3.

    I'm sorry, but Quigon finding Anakin is a nice touch. It just sounds so Star Wars like. And it works for the story. It is vintage Star Wars. What is the point of Obiwan dying in ANH? It seems a waste. Well, I dont really beleive that, but its as absurd as saying that having Quigon die at the end of episode 1 is a waste.
  16. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    thats all well and good, but TPM still has no protagonist.
  17. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Qui-Gon is TPM's protagonist.
  18. SenatorTarkin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2002
    Phew! Somewhere in this thread somebody touched on an interesting point. Ok, perhaps a few people had a few points. Anyway, the one that caught my eye was this.

    TPM was filmed before the whole PT story was complete.

    Even now, I imagine GL has loads of ideas for Ep3, but is still head scratching.

    Another good point from the beginning of this thread is that the long break between 1983 ROTJ and 1999 TPM left the 'fans' with far too much time to develop their own opinions of how the events of PT would lead to ANH. Also of course, The Star Wars Extended Universe has developed, enriching the already full backdrop for the OT even further.

    Ultimately, it IS GLs fault for one simple reason.
    George Lucas created Star Wars. And as a result a generation was completely screwed. Destined to become the most anal SF geeks to ever stalk the planet. God bless him.

    No, what I really mean is that ANH was such an amazing event that it changed cinema and media and society completely. It was a western. It had wizardary. It had space ships, lasers and robots. It clearly surpassed all other sf and indeed adventure movies per se.
    But ultimately, (prepare yourself)....

    it was a film made for... kids.
    Yep, we've all been one. And we soaked this baby up.

    the other big problem we all have is that only Lucas can authentically create or modify the Star Wars universe - and we need to question his motives.
    Don?t forget that what GL really wanted in the early 70s was to make a new kind of film, utilising the kind of dramatic space sequences of Kubrick and Clarke's 2001, magic and a kind of 1950 rites of passage theme and wrap all of this up in the Flash Gordon mould. The Flash Gordon type cinema serials where the archetype of cinema sci fi and Lucas wanted to pay homage to what probably drew him to cinema in the first place. No one had tried to create a Space adventure like Flash and really succeeded. The 50s and 60s had developed a huge SF audience through B-movies etc but nothing had captured the spirit of Buster Crabbe's Flash serials.

    Well as we know the licence was out of reach and so Lucas was forced to develop his own characters and situations for his ideas.

    Wizards, dog fights, a beautiful Princess and a walking carpet - all brought to life in ANH.

    Personally, I think ANH was christened Ep4 just for Effect. The illusion of being part of something grander. Ep4 - the 4th quarter. The final gripping piece of a serial that never was. ACT 4. This makes sense. Ideas where all thrown into the mix and the result was immense.
    GL admits that had he known that Star Wars would have been so popular and allowed for a sequel or even a trilogy of films - then he would not have wasted the grand finale of the destruction of the first Death Star so cheaply. i.e... no need for a second Death Star etc. Yarvin/Endor, Ewoks/Wookees.... cut and paste etc.
    The problem after OT is that to get to ANH, there is SO MUCH that NEEDS to be told/shown to the audience in PT.
    What we are seeing in TPM, ATOC and no doubt in Ep3 is at best, the condensed version of events. Star Wars is just too epic. The plot from TPM to ANH would really benefit from at least twice as many episodes... Ultimately there just isn't time to do the Star Wars saga the justice it seems to deserve.

    How many 30 somethings just wish that they could go back to 1973 or whenever and say to GL... 'Look George - this is gonna be big...Really BIG... DON'T BLOW IT. Don't make a kids film...'
    Hmmm?

    We could have the whole of the OT made as a set of films for an adult audience. More intelligent, fewer pointless robot wisecracks etc... and then a PT that stretches back to the days before the Republic.... a real Epic... beyond the Biblical. Wow. But then again - this could never have happened so BE THANKFUL that ANH was ever made!

    Just to go back a little, as I said above the Saga before ANH is potentially massive. So much history is crying out to be put up on screen.

    The unseen period between TPM and AOTC is around 10 years. This is a long time in the life of a Jedi
  19. Jedi_Waster Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    star 2
  20. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    While his method is to flesh each film out as he gets to it, the general plot was not made up on the fly.

    In fact, the classic trilogy is the one that was at one point thought to be 6 episodes, but in the end, he managed to condense everything into ROTJ.

    The prequels are in all likelyhood the least changed of the original outline. In fact, most of it can be seen in the ANH novelization, which talks about the Jedi Scientists, and their quest to define the Force, the Republic rotting from within as a result of rampant corruption.

    Anyway, I think Lucas is doing a top notch job here.
  21. TokyoXtreme Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    TPM has no protagonist as AOTC has no climax. What will we not get in Episode III? A conflict? Rising action? We'll definitely have lots of exposition -- to that I doubt anyone could disagree.
  22. JenX Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    I am not allowed in the basher's sanctuary because nobody in there wants to see the prequels in a positive light.

    No, Go-Mer, you aren't allowed in the Basher's Sanctuary because of your habit of trolling and flaming. Just thought I'd clear that one up.

    Anyway, I don't have any problem with there not being a single all important protagonist in TPM. And, addressing the post that started this thread, I do think it's GL fault if he produces something that isn't very good. Likewise I give him the credit when he produces something fantastic.
  23. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    To clear it up, you do not allow gushing in there. It says so in the opening post that gushing is decidedly "off topic". I tried to bash the film, but you guys took that as a personal attack as well.

    The important part is I am not allowed in the negativity sanctuary so I would appreciate it if WS would do me the service of addressing my points here where I made them.

    Of course if he can't think of anything to say...

    I would understand that.
  24. JenX Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    To clear it up, you do not allow gushing in there. It says so in the opening post that gushing is decidedly "off topic". I tried to bash the film, but you guys took that as a personal attack as well.

    That is so true. I completely agree with your assessment. I'm really glad you cleared that up. They were all wrong to think that. You were right. It must feel good to realise that. I feel sorry for those who don't see it that way.

    I would appreciate it if WS would do me the service of addressing my points here where I made them.


    It does seem bizarre that someone would post a response to you in a completely different thread.

    Weird.

  25. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I didn't even see a response to me in the BS thread either. I guess he assumed the whole thread is a water tight case against what I was saying.

    Oh And Tokyo, Qui-Gon was the protagonist of TPM, and the Arena Battle/Clone War was the climax of AOTC.

    How could anyone miss these things?
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