Is it really Lucas' fault?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by ST-TPM-ASF-TNE, Jul 11, 2002.

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  1. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    There was an interesting discussion about the climax (shudder)* of AOTC on the AOTC forum. Depending on what your definition of a climax (shudder)* is you might feel that AOTC didn't have one, or that it was the Tusken slaughter.

    Personally I'd say the arena battle was the climax (shudder)*, but I don't feel it was a particularly good one.





    * Curse TokyoXtreme! Will my Boogie Nights/Chewie picture hell never end?
  2. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Man, I am glad I don't feel that way.
  3. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    A Captian must go down with his ship.

    And to quote Michael Ray Richardson*:

    "This ship be sinkin'."








    (Special prize to anyone who knows who that is off the top of their head.)
  4. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    If it was only the captain left on the ship, I would agree, but there are plenty of us who don't think "the ship" is really sinking, and think the people who are jumping into the life boats are just over reacting to the natural wave action of the ocean.
  5. stone_jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2001
    star 4
    ^^^^^ Reminds me of the people on the Titanic who didn't believe it was sinking until they saw the water flooding their rooms. ;)

  6. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "The prequels are in all likelyhood the least changed of the original outline."

    of course they are, considering the scripts were not finished when production had begun. AOTC wasnt even finished in time for the start of principal photography.

    if you want to try and push people into believing TPM has a protagonist and it's Qui-Gon, please tell us how he is the protagonist. what is his character arc in TPM? saying Qui-Gon is the protagonist is about as valuable as saying "TPM rules"

    also what happened to the idea that the entire saga was anakin's? (i dont agree but ive heard it said plenty of times by posters here and Lucas himself)

    no more excuses and "george meant it that way", Gomer, just answer the question for a change.
  7. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I am talking about the basic structure, not the fleshed out screenplays. The structure for the prequels was always thought to be Episodes 1-2-3 since at least the time they first re released ANH before they even sat down to make Empire. As so many like to point out, there was originally going to be 9 movies in 3 trilogies. Obviously the classic trilogy and the one after that got all wrapped up in Episode VI, while the prequels are still being told as a single trilogy.

    Qui-Gon is the protagonist in TPM because he is the one who bucks the status quo and finds the chosen one.

    The entire saga -is- about Anakin. But it isn't like the story is about Anakin in a room by himself for 14 hours, there are other characters he interacts with.
  8. Jedi-Monkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2002
    star 4
    Okay, I'm probably gonna end up regretting this, but here goes...

    No, it isn't Lucas' fault, because there are not as many people who hate the movie as some would have us believe. I'm not gonna sit here and say no one didn't like it, and this is all a conspiracy. That would be absurd. But it's also absurd to simply say that TPM isn't a good movie, when so many people obviously enjoyed it very much. Tell us you didn't like it, even going into detail about why. But don't tell us George Lucas failed, because far too many of us don't agree with you. People have said that everyone they know disliked TPM. I can't disagree with that, since I don't know everyone they know, but I can say that almost everyone I know thought the movie was a lot of fun, just like the OT. I didn't really know about any negative feelings towards it, (other than from the critics, and how far can we trust them to be objective?) until I started going to chat rooms and message boards that were populated almost entirely by sci-fi fans.

    Some fans had preconcieved notions of what the PT should be, and were disappointed when that wasn't what they got. Maybe that's not entirely the fans' fault, but it's not George Lucas' fault either.

    I think a small scene from TESB sums this whole thing up quite nicely:

    Luke: (pointing to theater at midnight, May 19th, 1999) What's in there?

    Yoda: Only what you take with you.
  9. Jedi-Monkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2002
    star 4
    Okay, I'm probably gonna end up regretting this, but here goes...

    No, it isn't Lucas' fault, because there are not as many people who hate the movie as some would have us believe. I'm not gonna sit here and say no one didn't like it, and this is all a conspiracy. That would be absurd. But it's also absurd to simply say that TPM isn't a good movie, when so many people obviously enjoyed it very much. Tell us you didn't like it, even going into detail about why. But don't tell us George Lucas failed, because far too many of us don't agree with you. People have said that everyone they know disliked TPM. I can't disagree with that, since I don't know everyone they know, but I can say that almost everyone I know thought the movie was a lot of fun, just like the OT. I didn't really know about any negative feelings towards it, (other than from the critics, and how far can we trust them to be objective?) until I started going to chat rooms and message boards that were populated almost entirely by sci-fi fans.

    Some fans had preconcieved notions of what the PT should be, and were disappointed when that wasn't what they got. Maybe that's not entirely the fans' fault, but it's not George Lucas' fault either.

    I think a small scene from TESB sums this whole thing up quite nicely:

    Luke: (pointing to theater at midnight, May 19th, 1999) What's in there?

    Yoda: Only what you take with you.
  10. Jedi-Monkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2002
    star 4
    Okay, I'm probably gonna end up regretting this, but here goes...

    No, it isn't Lucas' fault, because there are not as many people who hate the movie as some would have us believe. I'm not gonna sit here and say no one didn't like it, and this is all a conspiracy. That would be absurd. But it's also absurd to simply say that TPM isn't a good movie, when so many people obviously enjoyed it very much. Tell us you didn't like it, even going into detail about why. But don't tell us George Lucas failed, because far too many of us don't agree with you. People have said that everyone they know disliked TPM. I can't disagree with that, since I don't know everyone they know, but I can say that almost everyone I know thought the movie was a lot of fun, just like the OT. I didn't really know about any negative feelings towards it, (other than from the critics, and how far can we trust them to be objective?) until I started going to chat rooms and message boards that were populated almost entirely by sci-fi fans.

    Some fans had preconcieved notions of what the PT should be, and were disappointed when that wasn't what they got. Maybe that's not entirely the fans' fault, but it's not George Lucas' fault either.

    I think a small scene from TESB sums this whole thing up quite nicely:

    Luke: (pointing to theater at midnight, May 19th, 1999) What's in there?

    Yoda: Only what you take with you.
  11. Jedi-Monkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2002
    star 4
    Sorry about the multiple-posting. Everything seemed to be screwing up here last night, and I kept getting error masseages. I didn't even I had actually posted anything. SORRY!

    (Boy, do I feel like an idiot now!)
  12. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    No not Lucas' fault. People's expectations, yes. And fault for what? What is his fault? Becuase he made a movie that did not appeal to you? What fault? Nothing. You go in with high expectations and of course you will be disappointed. Not his fault if everyone expects too much from a movie. Not everyone was disappointed. My fav of 1999 by far.
  13. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Oh yeah, I go into every movie expecting mediocrity.

  14. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "But don't tell us George Lucas failed, because far too many of us don't agree with you."

    far too many of us FANS ON A STAR WARS FAN BOARD, duh, where else are people gonna think lucas did a good job? everywhere else, people think the movie stinks.

    "People have said that everyone they know disliked TPM. I can't disagree with that, since I don't know everyone they know, but I can say that almost everyone I know thought the movie was a lot of fun, just like the OT."

    almost everyone? see? even in your circle there are people who didnt like the film.

    regardless, its all lucas' fault. you cant blame the audience for a bad movie any more than you can blame a witness for the murder.
  15. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    everywhere else, people think the movie stinks

    You have no proof of that. You're making a guess.


    regardless, its all lucas' fault. you cant blame the audience for a bad movie any more than you can blame a witness for the murder

    I still don't understand this. Why is it Lucas' fault that other people can't appreciate his work?
  16. Jedi-Monkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2002
    star 4
    Did you even READ the whole post?!? I accidentally posted it three times, so it shouldn't have been too much of a problem! [face_blush]

    Wait a minute.

    I retract my question. Obviously you didn't read the entire post. I just re-read yours, and I don't see how you could possibly have read through and understood completely what I was saying, and still come up with the statement you did. Let me try and help you a bit here:

    I didn't really know about any negative feelings towards it, (other than from the critics, and how far can we trust them to be objective?) until I started going to chat rooms and message boards that were populated almost entirely by sci-fi fans. (Emphasis was added)

    Boy I hate re-posting my own stuff, but since you seem to have missed it, or twisted it around, here it as again for you. This was your reply:

    far too many of us FANS ON A STAR WARS FAN BOARD, duh, where else are people gonna think lucas did a good job? everywhere else, people think the movie stinks.

    Now, if we go back and re-read what I originally posted, we will see that I said I never saw a negative reaction UNTIL I came to message boards. So your rubuttal would seem to make no sense, since it doesn't even accurately address the point I was making. 'A' for effort though.

    almost everyone? see? even in your circle there are people who didnt like the film.

    Yeah? And? Is there a point you were trying to make with that statement? I would hazard a guess that in pretty much every circle there are going to be people who don't agree completely 100% about everything! Do you and ALL of your friends always agree on everything? I sincerely doubt it. Since by my own statement I apparently do know people who were less than thrilled with it, what did you hope to accomplish by repeating it? I'm afraid I simply don't understand the goal there. I'll once again try to make it simple for you though. Yes, a few of the people I know were less than thrilled with TPM. However, you seem to want to gloss over the part where I mentioned the moajority DID in fact enjoy it, very much. I am now forced to wonder why you are focusing on the negative instead of the positive. Hmmm...

    regardless, its all lucas' fault. you cant blame the audience for a bad movie any more than you can blame a witness for the murder.

    As Ekenobi pointed out, exactly WHAT is Lucas' fault? There is no proof, no evidence that TPM was a BAD movie. There is ONLY your opinion, and all that means is that YOU didn't like it. And yes, I know that there are other people who didn't like it. Have you ever heard of the vocal minority? It's pretty much how political correctness came about, and the reason my kids can't celebrate Christmas in their schools. And it's also what we have here; some people who LOVED TPM, a whole bunch of people who thought it was good, like the OT, and some people who absolutely LOATHED it, for whatever reason. But it IS NOT because it is a bad movie, but rather because IT WAS NOT THE MOVIE THEY WANTED TO SEE AFTER SIXTEEN YEARS! That's all I, and many other people have been trying to say. If you don't like the movie, that is your right, and there is nothing wrong with not liking it. But blaming Lucas because he didn't meet YOUR expectations, regardless of how right or wrong those exectations might be, is childish, and aren't we all better than that? I'd like to think we are.

    Some people have said that maybe if Lucas had made Episode I in 1986 it might have been received better. I have to assume that means by certain sects of fandom, because the general population simply was not as disappointed in it as some of us were. But we'll never know the answer to this question, so sending Lucas hate mail, and blaming him for "ruining Star Wars for you" and whatnot will never accomplish anything. Should he have made the PT years ago? Maybe, but he didn't so it's moot. Could TPM have been a better movie? Sure, any movie could be made better
  17. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "But it IS NOT because it is a bad movie, but rather because IT WAS NOT THE MOVIE THEY WANTED TO SEE AFTER SIXTEEN YEARS! That's all I, and many other people have been trying to say. If you don't like the movie, that is your right, and there is nothing wrong with not liking it. But blaming Lucas because he didn't meet YOUR expectations, regardless of how right or wrong those exectations might be, is childish, and aren't we all better than that? I'd like to think we are."

    THAT STATEMENT IS COMPLETELY HYPOTHESIS AND OPINION. accusing lifelong fans of star wars for not liking TPM because of their expectations and not because the films is bad is pretty childish too.

    POST PROOF that people did not like this film because it did not meet their expectations OR RETRACT.

    you can go on and on about it, complain and whine that expectations were too high blah, blah, blah, but that is YOUR OPINION just as much as it is MY OPINION THAT LUCAS IS TOTALLY TO BLAME FOR THE LAME FILMS OF THE PT.

    you dont like it? dont read it.


  18. Jedi_Learner Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 5
    Don't feed the troll people.
  19. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    Unless you yourself provide proof that "everywhere else, people think the movie stinks", I don't think you have the right to ask proof of Jedi-Monkey's comments :)
  20. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    you are the one who asked for proof in the first place, so you're not really in a position to make remarks.
  21. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    so dont think your opinion or his has any more weight then mine

    I have never stated, nor thought that :)


    you are the one who brought proof into the equation, so it rests on you to provide some before you go asking anyone else to do the same

    What do you mean? :confused:
  22. Jedi-Monkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2002
    star 4
    Okay, one last time and then I'm done unless I can get intelligent conversation from you instead of foaming at the mouth rabid hatred of anything that is contrary to your feelings.

    Once again you have taken my statement and removed it from its intended context to try and twist it around to try and show us why YOUR opinion is the right one. That's getting annoying, son. If you don't start replying to things in the context in which they were first stated, I'm gonna start to think you are incapable of rational thought, and I don't wanna believe that. So far I simply think you're a fellow fan who is passionate about his point of view. Nothing wrong with that that I can see. But please, more well thought out debate and less foaming at the mouth fanaticism and this can be a truly great thread. Thank you.

    Now, let the madness begin...

    THAT STATEMENT IS COMPLETELY HYPOTHESIS AND OPINION. accusing lifelong fans of star wars for not liking TPM because of their expectations and not because the films is bad is pretty childish too.

    POST PROOF that people did not like this film because it did not meet their expectations OR RETRACT.


    Post proof of YOUR claims or retract them.

    No wait, that's the easy way out to simply reverse what you said, and I don't wanna do that. You're right, it IS my opinion that it was your expectations that lead you to not enjoying a film. But at least my opinion has some basis in basic human pyschology. Before you jump off the deep end again though, let's stop and look at something here.

    Why do you go to see any movie? Because you expect it to be good, right? you see something in a trailer somewhere and you say something to the effect of, "That looks pretty cool!" So you go into every single movie you ever see with 'expectaions'! And it is NATURAL when a movie does well, and is loved by millions, that the expectations for that movie WILL BE HIGHER!!! That's simply human nature and there's nothing you can do about it. If you do not like the movie you just saw, IT IS BECAUSE YOUR EXPECTATIONS WERE NOT MET! You don't like the movie, FINE! no one is arguing that you have to like it! Your opinion is noted, and accepted. But the question of this thread was not 'Who liked TPM," it was "Was it really Lucas' fault?" and to anyone with even a basic grasp of reality, the answer is "NO."

    If your criteria for saying a movie sucked, or a director isn't any good or whatever, is someone didn't like the movie, then you can argue that every single movie ever made sucks, and it's the fault of every single director, EVER, since no matter what movie you mentioned you could find someone, somewhere that didn't like it. To me that seems like a pretty asinine statement, and I would not want to be the one who has to back that up with facts.

    But then, since so far we have not seen even a shred of evidence that TPM sucked, I guess it's moot. If we can't prove it about ONE film, how can we hope to prove it about every film?

    How about this as a compromise? It's George Lucas' fault that TPM is the movie we got, but it isn't his fault that it wasn't the movie you wanted to see. That sounds pretty fair to me, how about you?

    Because despite the vocal minority who despise the film, for their own personal reasons as they have the right to do, it still isn't a bad movie.

    And now, a personal request: Can you please calm down a little and try to explain your points in a rational manner so that this thread does not get locked?

    Thank you, and have a nice day! :)


  23. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    Wow! Do you blame every director for every movie you do not like. I sure don't I just do not like the movie. I went in with high expectations of movies that turned out to be bombs. Not the directors fault. THat was their vision and they were happy with the result. I on the other hand did not HAVE to like it. But I am not blaming the director becuas eit was bad. I just did not like it. Just because you do not like a movie does not mean it was bad. And no one is at fault for you not liking a movie. NO ONE! THat is just your taste.. you did not like it fine. We did and you will not change our minds about it. Go to the Bashers Sanctuary fo bashing. Us fans would like to have a civil discussion of the movies.
  24. Jedi-Monkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2002
    star 4
    Wait a minute.

    In order to ask for proof you must already possess proof? :confused:

    Okay, now I'm curious. What society do you live in, Dr.?

    I've never heard of that before.

    Where I come from, I don't have to provide proof I'm innocent. YOU have to provide proof I'm guilty. I'm presumed innocent.

    (We learned about that WAY back in grade school.)

    In other words, no I do not have to provide proof in order to ask you for proof of your statement.

    This whole thing is starting to come off like a gradeschool playground argument. Next thing you know we'll be bringing up the whole, "I asked you first," thing. I wonder where it will degenerate to from there?

    And if anyone says girls have cooties I am SOOO outta here.
  25. Jedi-Monkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2002
    star 4
    Anyway, it's New Years' Eve and my girlfriend is a-waitin' on me, so I'm outta here til tomorrow! Just wanna wish you ALL, (yes, including you DrEvazan,) a very happy and SAFE New Years! Please be careful, my fellow fans. (I know. Kinda sappy, but I mean it all the same.)

    It's PARTY TIME!
    P. A. R. T. Why? because I GOTTA!

    Have a GREAT night! :D
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