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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Is it still Star Wars if it is not in line with the vision of Lucas?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by ray243, Jun 5, 2014.

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  1. phatdude1138

    phatdude1138 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2005
    I'm a Lucas defender (AKA: fanboy). In the LEGAL sense "Star Wars" is a Disney owned entity. Star Wars is Star Wars, so what you see is what you get and it will be advertised as Star Wars.

    Okay, now to what I think the OP was getting at (or at least my view). My opinion is that Star Wars (was) 100% Lucas. Obviously one man can't make a movie, but it was this one mans imagination and innovation that made it possible. Lucas dreamed and surrounded himself with people he knew would have the talent to bring this dream to reality. I'm not just talking the story of Star Wars, but creating the modern day special effects movie that we all know and love. ILM, Pixar and THX didn't just magically appear, they cam from the teams George put together. It's easy to take for granted when you watch the next Marvel super hero movie that the special effects are a decedent from the original creation of Lucas.

    As for the lore of Star Wars, as recently as TCW Dave Filoni said Lucas was very hands on in the stories and the direction in which the universe was going. Even now the "treatments" of Episode 7 - 9 were from the desk of Lucas himself. People talk about Kasdan writing ESB, but they forget that Lucas overided many of Kasdans ideas including "killing off Han Solo" in ESB (a decision I'm glad was made).

    Long story short IMO, these next films will have a slight "Lucas feel" to them, as the stories are loosely based off of his ideas, but everything after (or during like the spin offs) will not have a Lucas feel to them. To me there will always be two eras, the GL era and the AGL era. I of course will watch whatever is put out, but I have the feeling I will have more attachment and more feeling towards the GL era projects.
     
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  2. loki41872

    loki41872 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 2002
    Not in my mind, they weren't. And not in a lot of others. And i don't mean people on the internet. 10+ years in the 501st, most i talked to considered the EU to be side stuff. Like Bonus material on a DVD. It can be enjoyed, but it doesn't mean anything to the actual movie.
     
  3. Vehgah

    Vehgah Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    May 8, 2014
    People seemed to like the EU well enough, even if I ignored it.

    I'm sure I won't mind as long as they produce some good things.
     
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  4. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    It's an impossible and vague question unless people identify which Lucas and which vision they're talking about. His views have changed radically over time. He's revised his own films numerous times. Many fans and critics would argue that the OT Lucas vision is different from the PT Lucas vision (or even that TCW vision is different from those). From a theoretical standpoint, there's a concept called the implied author which can be helpful when trying to talk about an author's vision. The implied author (or in this case, director) is different in each film (different tones, styles, techniques), and never corresponds to the actual author (the empirical author, George Lucas). In one film the implied author might have a dark vision while in another the vision is hopeful; one trilogy may differ in tone and meaning from another trilogy.

    So before we could even answer such a question, we'd have to know what vision we are talking about, which implied author. Personally, I think it's easier just to talk about the films, and how the style and themes may or may not connect into a unified whole.

    If I had to guess, the new films will try to stick to the style and tone ("vision") of the OT, prior to the special editions. But JJ et al. will have their own unique stamp on it, simply for the fact that this is 2014.

    But when people talk about Lucas's "vision," it would be helpful if they clarify what they mean. Obviously lots of SW fans disagree about what SW is and what constitutes that vision. For example, some want less fantasy, myth, less Skywalkers, Jedi, and more hard sci-fi. For me that wouldn't be SW.
     
  5. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013
    Lucas's opinion of ST will not affect my opinion of the ST at all. I do hope that he likes the films and certainly hope he doesn't feel betrayed by any changes to his treatments, but in the end, I don't think we'll ever hear his view of the ST either way. He's a nice guy and professional, so I doubt he'll ever criticize the films publicly. At most, he'll say: "They're not exactly what I would have done, but I like them for what they are." (I also wonder if the ST really stinks and the fanboys go crazy with Internat hate, whether a little part of George will feel like, "So...it's really not so easy to make a space opera set in a fictional galaxy that has no connection to earth, is it?"[face_devil] )

    At the same time, I will NOT like the ST if I feel it does not conform to Lucas's vision. I may sound like I'm contradicting myself, but what I mean is this: if the ST doesn't have the "feel" of Star Wars, if it tries to re-write the OT or PT or undermines them at all, if it changes the characters we know from the OT in unbelievable ways, if it is just a typical Hollywood big fast action movie with no heart, or if it does not feel as if it connects strongly to the other 6 films, then it won't be real Star Wars for me.

    And honestly, I can even imagine some scenarios in which I might like the films but still not think they are part of the Star Wars saga or universe for me.
     
  6. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    No doubt! For ESB they shot in Norway, and - living not far from the Norwegian border - I've eaten Norwegian food. It's awful! [face_sick]

    :p

    "Blablabla, thread has nothing to do with it, but best I turn it into a PTvOT battle by being insulting, blablabla."
     
  7. ray243

    ray243 Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 26, 2006

    And people wonder why some people are annoyed with those anti-PT fans...
     
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  8. stellarmagic01

    stellarmagic01 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    To think that Star Wars, especially the Original Trilogy, was a product of one single man is dismissive of all the time and effort put in by other people. Ralph McQuarrie is as important to Star Wars in some ways as Lucas, with his visuals determining much of the artistic direction of the film and even getting Lucas funded for A New Hope. Irvin Kershner and Lawrence Kasdan deserve a lot of the credit for making The Empire Strikes Back a critical success.

    While we can not dismiss the creative genius of Lucas, many people are far too eager to place everything at his feet. Films are a collaborative exercise, and I personally think that Lucas works best when there are others filtering his ideas and molding them. Hell, I think the Prequel Trilogy could really have used someone just to go through and clean up the dialog, something that happened in just about all the Original Trilogy scripts.

    Lucas is a good idea man, but Star Wars is far bigger then him.
     
  9. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    I'm wondering if you've even watched the films when you seem to fail (intentionally or otherwise) in grasping plot points... I don't think Star Wars films should ever be made to appeal just to the lowest common denominator... those that need things spoon fed and in neon.
     
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  10. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The EU is as much Star Wars as the movies are (if not more in some cases) imo. Zahn, Allston, Keyes, Stover, Luceno, Crispin, the comic writers etc, all write Star Wars just as good as Lucas does. Are any cultural landmarks like the OT were? Debatable but the books and comics are easily as much SW as the movies are.
     
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  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I'd probably add Ryder Windham to the list - for writing so many Star Wars sourcebooks, the junior novelizations of the OT, and a few character-centric books (The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader, the Life And Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi, etc.
     
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  12. mratm23

    mratm23 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 13, 2014
    Completely disagree, and I'm sure others would too. To me the EU is amazingly great, but they just aren't the same as the films.
     
  13. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Haven't read everything by him but he is really good from what I have read. Add him to the list as well.

    And that's your choice and others. Still missing out though. Nothing wrong with that. Movies good enough for you? Good. Me? Nope. Must have more.
     
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  14. Blazer-Smith

    Blazer-Smith Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2004
    George Lucas led the making of two great Star Wars movies, three OK movies and one incredibly terrible Star Wars movie. Let's face it, the legacy ain't as bad as the Matrix trilogy but it could be better. As a result, I'm not sure I care what his vision is for it moving forward.
     
  15. Odolwa

    Odolwa Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Yes.
     
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  16. KevinM1

    KevinM1 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2012
    Yes, I'm the one that's missing plot points when I just pointed out a handful of flaws with the foundation of the story. And, I'm sorry, but attempting to explain away the dangling Sifo-Dyas plot point in an episode of a cartoon that, to this point, has only aired on Netflix is a failure of storytelling. Full stop.

    The entire PT is riddled with these contortions that fall apart the moment you start to think about them. And AotC, the film that sets most of the entire point of the PT in motion is riddled with them.

    I mean, let's look at Jango. We have a bounty hunter who was with the Separatists and was used as the template for the Republic's just-in-time clone army, and no one cares. The same bounty hunter who was living with the cloners despite them having already made dozens to thousands of clones from him, so presumably his presence is no longer required there (which is verified by them pumping out new clones after this film). The same bounty hunter who hired another bounty hunter to assassinate Padme, and used an exotic, easy to trace weapon to kill her/it instead of just a blaster.

    It's ridiculous. Unnecessary contrivance on top of unnecessary contrivance. Details that don't add to anything and complete gaps in logic, despite the political machinations happening in the background, which only serves to make it absurd. So we're left with an overall plot where everyone is an idiot because the plot demands things happen, things that would never happen if anyone stopped and went, "Hey, wait a minute." It's like a watered down Hideo Kojima without the self-awareness.

    Or, howabout "I'm a person and my name is Anakin!" quickly bending knee to Palpatine in the third movie, with nary any on-screen reaction from the once-slave becoming a slave again?

    But, yes, I'm the one who's missing the point.

    ---

    All I know of GL is his work. And his work from 1997 (I'm lukewarm on the OT Special Edition - Bespin and the Wampa look awesome, the rest is firmly "meh") until now informs me that he's not a very good filmmaker anymore. And as such, I really don't care about his opinion on the ST. I appreciate him for starting the franchise, and making three classic films ~27 years ago, but his recent body of work wildly misses the mark, IMO. So, I'm happy he's no longer involved.
     
  17. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    As long as SW continues to have the Force, Jedi, Sith, starfighters, Rebellion against the Empire or the bad guy of the day, smugglers, Bounty Hunters, aliens, planets, etc it will be SW.
     
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  18. Thomas Solo

    Thomas Solo Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2012

    Dude I am going to agree with almost all of this. But I wont put Jedi in with any great movies. I liked it but way too much wrong with it. It came out when I was in eighth grade and I thought it was great but with age comes perspective. I rank it as my least favorite alongside TPM. Good films but not great by any stretch.
     
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  19. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    I would take the cue from Lucas' inspirations, the serials of Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, westerns, the multifaceted skien of parallel legends of Merlin, Uther and Arthur (and Morwen). No one production house or movie studio owns the cultural legacy of Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, etc, even if they own the rights to make money off an additional film. Some things have entered the cultural unconscious and so there has been a handshake and hand off of authority.

    There's a useful concept called 'death of the author', which means that the author loses control of the meaning and treatment of his text as soon as it leaves his pen. I think this is the crisis of being a genuine creator, a genuine visionary, a genuine contributor of your own (g.d.) ideas to the human experience - You may try your best to freight your work with this ponderous depth of learning, anthropological and psychological truths, out of great life experience and higher education, but the innocent savage clever reader will find that smaller thermal exhaust port in your work, right below the main port, and exploit it. You do not own or control the "meaning" of what you have sent forth or released into the wild. (Here I give only the gist of 'death of the author'.)
     
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  20. TheFoot

    TheFoot Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2011
    I seriously doubt Lucas would come out and preach anything against the ST. He has to respect it to some degree, as it is sort of based one what he initially came up with and started. He may even be a bit surprised by what the new crew comes up with. I don't mean that he'd be surprised upon release.....he probably is kept in-the-know about what's going on since he's like a huge stock holder for Disney anyway, right?

    Then again he did come out and act all butt-hurt a couple years back and say he wasn't gonna do Star Wars anymore. I think he has become somewhat jaded over it to a degree, and maybe selling it was his way of relieving himself of the stress of it all.
     
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  21. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    I'll always love George for creating Star Wars in the first place, and I'll always respect him for being his own man and doing things his own way. That being said, I have enjoyed a lot of things Star Wars over the years that George had little or nothing to do with. From books, to comics, to video games I've had a great time as a Star Wars fan. I've been shown that Star Wars can survive and be great without George's involvement, and that's enough for me. As long as I think it's good, it's Star Wars as far as I'm concerned.
     
  22. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Got to do something SW related while waiting for the new movies.
     
  23. Avnar

    Avnar Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2007
    Couldn't have said it better!

    Brilliant.
     
  24. TheFoot

    TheFoot Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2011
    AotC was a total mess. TPM was definitely out-there and threw people for a loop (Jar Jar and super-duper young Anakin). But that was nothing compared to AotC. You're right about Jango.....it never made sense. He's with the seperatists...but LIVES with the cloners? Only because they need a new DNA sample every so often? What? If you follow the plot of the film, the entire clone wars begin simply because they find and identify a single dart. A DART. Obi follows the trail...Kamino....then tracks Jango...finds that 'oh suddenly the Seperatists happen to be building an army.' Do they negotiate? NO! Yoda....the one guy in the galaxy that SHOULD NOT BE STARTING ANY WAR, brings all the clones and blows the **** out of everybody.

    That movie is just a train wreck, the worst of all the films IMO. At least TPM follows the basic plot of saving Naboo and makes sense by the end. At the end of AotC (and even ROTS), I was scratching my head. Can someone really just go before a senate and declare they are the Emperor now? Can that happen?

    Yeah George.....had some bad ideas, and I am kind of glad to see him hand things over to other people. He most likely won't say anything bad about them, but if he does, he will get a lot of backlash, and people will set him straight.

    I respect the man and all, but agree that the plots of AotC and ROTS are garbage, despite how cool some battles and such may look and all. TPM plot has issues too, but like I said it does come full circle and makes a little sense in the end, even though Sidious kind of gets what he wants anyway.

    Bleh.....prequel ranting.....comes out in me too easy. :> Sorry guys.
     
  25. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    What is depicted is elective war for express purpose of arrogating power away from the duly elected structures upholding the self-determination of a representative democracy. The nuts and bolts of that elective war, Jangos and darts and fat guys in diners, is kind of beneath my level of appreciation. What you accuse Lucas of flubbing, in the granular details of his step-by-step, is extremely analogous to the sycophant media pile driving the Younger Bush / Rumsfeld / Cheney / Powell imperative to invade Iraq now now now ZOMG now! So that Bechtel and Halliburton and other mega-corporations could get first dibs on oil and >>re<< -construction contracts. This blindness you see in Lucas' movie should be recalling to you the aluminum pipes that were produced, in media, into untold zomg hundreds of uranium centrifuges of WMD. None of any of it was in direct relation or proportion to the 2001 attacks, which were by these entirely other guys of not-white complexion in a not-West part of the world, but it was all smudged together to legitimize what was a mahogany door and boardroom calculated decision. I'll ding AOTC for Portman/Christensen paint drying and for 3PO sing-along ball bouncing over syllables. The noir was Maltese and the Yoda dilemma was palpable. Was Yoda's failure to follow Jedi principles the greatest of such failures, or did it lead to the greatest number of deaths? Maybe.
     
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