Is it the Force's will that the Jedi be destroyed?

logic:
-Anakin has a vision that padme is going to die
-Anakin does anything he can to prevent that and seemingly is why he joins palpy and the sith
-This CAUSES his vision to come true

question:
-If Anakin doesn't have the vision, does he join palpy?

therefore:

Does the force give anakin the self fulfilling vision to send him down this path? Are the Jedi so far gone down the wrong (not dark, just wrong) path that they need to be destroyed to be reborn?

 

Everything comes down to Anakin. Whatever he chooses, he is the choosen one. Like a demi god even.

 

The chosen one who brings balance back to the force. Now lucas says he brings balance back by killing sidious in ROTJ. If that's true and by bringing balance back he could have gotten sidious w/o having to turn to the dark side and killing the jedi. This makes me think that the bringing balance back to the force also meant destroying the jedi order as we know it because they aren't in touch with the force properly.

 

Everything that happens is the will of the force. Like it or not, the answer is yes.

 

^^^^^^
I can agree with that to a degree but you can't take choice out of the equation. Lucas has stated that it was all about choice. Anakin made the choice to turn to the dark side. I think the Force has a will and it's a choice to listen to the will of the force or to go against the will of the force. The Jedi have been going against the will of the force, just like the sith albeit not as badly. But it does seem to me that the force wants the jedi destroyed as if Anakin IS the chosen one, giving him the vision heads him down the path that will culminate in the destruction of the jedi. I remember this old argument from years ago that was regarding bringing balance back to the force. The argument was whether he brought balance back by destroying palpatine in ROTJ or if bringing the jedi down was bringing balance since the world at the time was tipped in favor of the light side of the force. I had argued that it was tipped in favor of the light side and not in numbers which was irrelevant. The force is the light side AND the dark side. It is the intention of the user. I argued that the force being in balance was more of a spiritual thing inside each jedi/sith. A true being in the force would have the balance of light side and dark side in them. The lucas quote about killing palpatine kind of ended the argument where people said "see, killing the sith brings balance" I argue now that we were both right. Taking out the jedi and then killing the sith, lets the universe start over hopefully with one who is balanced in the light side and the dark side, the true nature of the force.

 

Is it the Force's will that the Jedi be destroyed?

Well yeah, who do you think created Anakin in the first place?

 

I totally agree. I mentioned something similar on another thread. I think the Jedi are so stuck in their traditions that they fail to really pay attention to the Force's guidance. They use the Force, but only as a means to their own ends. In order to get rid of the Dark Side completely, then the Force must purge all potential Sith Lords. All Jedi are potential Sith. By the time of ANH, we have only two Jedi left and two Sith left. Obi-Wan dies first; then Yoda. Now there is Luke (the last Jedi), and Vader and the Emperor (the last two Sith). Vader converts; so briefly, there are two Jedi and one Sith (for the few seconds he is held up in the air and thrown down the shaft). Vader dies, the is only one Jedi left. Good rules. The Dark Side has no more access to their world. THE END. Forget all that EU stuff.

 

^^^
I know that...I meant the specifics of how he brought balance to the force. Obviously it was the will of the force to create anakin to bring balance back to the force. What I meant was more in lines with *HOW* he accomplishes this. It seems if it was simply getting rid of sidious, he wouldn't have needed to turn on the jedi and destroy them.

 

the force is both the light side and the dark side. they are constantly tuging at each other, keeping each other in balance, like planets in orbit with a moon. when the Jedi fail to do their part, due to being too rigid and not evolving with the force and listening to the will of the force, it gives the inertia to the dark side, and slowly but surely, it takes hold. The Jedi stepped off the scale, so to speak, and gave the weight to the Sith. Evil is constnatly just outside the door looking to slither in, and only constnat dilligence and evolution will keep you safe.

 

"Well yeah, who do you think created Anakin in the first place? "

That is right.

i have thought about this before a lot and i dont have time right now to discuss. good thread.

Did the jedi get so far off track that the force gave up on them and decided Anakin/Vader was the way to go?

EDIT this is a very subjective topic and will never be answered IMO. so i can this being debated forever.
It is something we can only speculate on and will never get a resolution on IMO.

 

JPB-
I agree with the structure except one point about the end. I don't think Luke is simply good end of story. Luke has touched the dark side a few times, (force choking the Gamorreans, swinging at Palpatine, etc.). Overall he is good. But he is better and stronger because he has touched the dark side and walked away. A slightly more subtle way then in he did in the EU. But now the force (light side and dark side) is in balance through him. He is a good jedi and it is where the universe will start over. Remember the dark side *IS* part of the force. It's not a SEPARATE force. Therefore I would think the will of the force would include both sides and the ability to balance it within ones self.

 

You know, this is a question I have no idea how to answer.

I think Anakin's "miraculous birth" part is the one section of Star Wars I don't get. Not because I don't get the concepts behind such births, etc. But it's almost like the messiah story reversed, which is confusing. Why would the Force, in its Will, decide just out of the blue that the Jedi should all be killed.

I suppose, in the end, the Will of the Force was to test the universe. It would send its champion, but it would test not only that champion, but everyone else. The champion would be put into an arena where everything around him will be lost or destroyed. But... this time he has the power to change it. In the messiah-type stories... that paragon of power leaps in and either saves the world with his might... or he chooses to save everyone with his words, using his might only to help those around him in need, and then sacrifice himself for the good of all.

Anakin seems to try to do the first version in the PT, but it turns out this version was the wrong choice. It was evil. It involved killing bad guys and good guys. It was basically him trying to reset the way things were. And that's not his place. This destroys the Jedi. The Jedi, in turn, are put to the ultimate test. Do they give up on the Force and the universe just because they're down?

It's interesting. The Jedi defeat the Sith. They go on for years in comfort. And then, through Anakin's choice, the Force has, in a sense allowed Anakin to place the Jedi where the Sith once were. Kind of like, "Okay, now you get to live the life of the bad guys. How patient and willing are you to keep your side of things going. And of course, in the OT, we learn that the Jedi Order is more than capable of waiting and confronting the darkness when the time is right.

And then Anakin finally makes the CORRECT choice. He sacrifices himself for the greater good. He wasn't supposed to use his uber-powers for a direct battle of might. When he tried that, Obi Wan Kenobi, the one who wisely listens to the Will of the force, comes out unscathed. How's that for a slap in the proverbial face of the Chosen One?

I'm still thinking it through in my head though. It's interesting.

 

His choice does factor in, but the job that the Force wanted to accomplish still got accomplished. If Anakin had chosen to remain patient and humble which would have been the better route for him as an individual, then the Force would have still used him to rid the galaxy of evil. After killing Sidious, some Force users over time, including his masters like Yoda, Obi, and Windu would have eventually submitted their authority to him. He would have become a sort of Galactic King or something. Force users would either stay on the light side out of a respectful fear of him or he would, by the time he was older, get rid of them with no effort at all. Eventually, the galaxy would have been rid of potential Sith either way.

 

If anakin had destroyed sidious when mace asked him to, or at least attempted too, he would have fufilled his destiny. By choosing not to, the path he had to take to get there became very different.

I believe it was always his destiny to kill sidious, and bring balance to the force, but not that the force had the entire path laid out for him.

the force created him, giving him the power to bring balance back, bu ti also think it gave him free will. it knew he would end up bringing the balance, but let him figure out what path he took to do it.

anyway, that's MHO.

FF

 

One thought i have on this is that the force was not meant to be used. Whether by sith for evil or jedi for good.

What i mean (bear with me) is that even the jedi using the force created an imbalance in the force, because they were bending physical laws. Its ok to use it philosiphical reasons, eg listening to it, allowing it to guide you but not use it forcefully.

The sith used it to manipulate evil deeds.

The jedi used it as a way to a means, force pushes etc.

This probably doesnt make sense becasue i find it hard to put into words, but i think force users were not meant to use the force for physical means, only spiritual (why yoda was selected to survive and why the force chose to talk to him because he was the only one still alive that tried to talk to the force).

Like i said, good thread.

 

I posted a similar thread not too long ago, but it failed to attract many viewers. Anyway, I think it's an intriguing topic.

Since it now sounds like the "balance of the Force" which Anakin is supposed to bring about involves the love and compassion that the current Jedi Order lacks, does this mean that the purpose of Anakin's conception was to help bring about the Jedi Purge? Perhaps had Anakin not fallen to the Dark Side, the Jedi would have managed to overcome Palpatine's plan and defeat him. Had this happened, the Jedi order would have continued to exist in it's compassionless state. In other words, what I'm trying to say is that perhaps Anakin's destiny all along was to fall to the Dark Side and eradicate the unbalanced Jedi Order.

Think about it. Had Anakin not been miraculously conceived when he was, either the Jedi would've defeated Palpatine and maintained their order in the same state it was existing, or Palpatine would've defeated the Jedi and there would've been no one to eventually defeat him.

Perhaps this is just common sense, and only something I'm realizing more slowly than everyone else. But I'm still just in complete awe at how these spoilers from the past few days have improved the first two prequels, added a new level of complexity to the OT, and actually increased my appreciation of the saga as a whole. The fact that these few simple spoilers explained the importance of Qui-Gon, midichlorians, Anakin's conception, the "Jedi ghosts", the jerk Jedi of the PT, the PT Jedi ban on love, Anakin's redemtpion at the end of ROTJ, and why Luke's actions and feelings are so different from those of the PT Jedi makes me realize once again that Lucas really is one of the greatest storytellers of our time.

 

Starkiller

Perhaps the jedi were meant to follow the "chosen one" and let him guide the jedi.

Unfortunately the jedi were to set in their ways and felt they had to instruct Anakin. Is this the reason for their downfall?

 

I don't see the Jedi Order remaining stagnant with the defeat of Sidious. The appearance of the Chosen One, and Sidious narrow victory is enough to scare the crap out of any Jedi.

I imagine it this way. Anakin was the most powerful. Had he done the right thing (ie - played the role of the sacrificial jedi, or the one who willingly lets go of the thing in his life for the sake of the others), then a change would have occurred anyway.

His experiences with the loss of Padme, his children, and the defeat of his "Mentor" Darth Sidious, all would have been emotional moments that would have forged him into a paragon that the Jedi Council could have easily used. He could have told them about his experiences with love, with how he held his resolve and let those things go, and he would have had children to raise. There's a whole slew of experiences that Anakin Skywalker would have had at his disposal, all of which would have probably changed the tune of the Jedi Order, especially considering that the Clone Wars alone resulted in the death of many of the Jedi Council and established ordes.

Yoda would have been close behind, and the system of power would change. One way or another, that Order was set for a changing. It didn't require a full reboot to get it right. That's just the way things worked out.

There's no way Anakin could have lived through all of that in ROTS, made the right choice, and then just say "Well, to heck with that. I don't know what I'm talking about. I'll go be a cold, smug Jedi now."

 

What if - and this is just a thought - it wasn't the will of the force that put the image of Padme dying in Anakin's head.

What if it was Sidious?

hmmm....

 

Doc-
That's an interesting thought, that I'm going to process for a bit before hopefully expounding on.

JPB- I agree ending the sith is paramount, therein lies the question, is getting rid of the jedi also paramount?

FF- I disagree but understand where you're coming from. You take it as the force is like a watchmaker (old school philosophy courses coming into play here). The force creates anakin for a purpose much like a watchmaker makes a watch. Instead of forcing the watch (anakin down a direct path), he merely lets it go and watches how it turns out.

Skill- Interesting. (EU alert) Kind of like Jacen Solo in NJO (end EU alert). That could be very true. The jedi and sith are taking powers not meant for them. The only problem with the theory is that anakin as the chosen one uses these powers physically. As the chosen one is he above the others or shouldn't the force show by example what the true user of the force should be with the Chosen One

Starkiller- This is exactly my point, well laid out.Everything needed to be destroyed to be rebuilt properly. In someways it kind of reminds me of Dragonlance, if anyone has read that, when the gods destroy Istar because of the Kingpriest's arrogance.

 

Soxtalon: I think you are right on the money. The balance in the force is internal and is personified in the birth of Luke. Anakin was the chosen one and like most messiahs in mythology served his purpose by literally combining both the force and darkside of the force by living it in full cycle. There and back again. Luke has the benefit of his Father's existance. He has both the Force and darkside combined within himself in a symbiotic relationship. We see it manifested by his using both force and darkside powers.

 

It depends if you view the force as the controlling deity of occidental religion or the Tao / Prana of Oriental religion.

I?m pretty sure it represents the Tao, its very name gives this away, and the way it is described by its users. So it has no will it just is.

 

I guess the Jedi needed to be destroyed so the will of the force could be served. I guess this is the begining of bringing balance to the force. First eliminate the light, then the dark, leaving only a middle ground. This middle ground being Qui Gon's style which is shown in Luke.


On a side note: I hate this whole Anakin is the chosen one / jesus like figure crap. This is why people dislike the prequals and they will never measure up to the original trilogy.

 

Well heres another go.

The force created anakin when it felt the darkside (sids) coming on the scene and knew the jedi werent equipped to cope. Then the jedi got hold of anakin and stuffed him up and in the end created their own demise. They shouldve left him alone and trusted the prophecy instead of assuming they had to train him (arrogance), in fact i suggest the jedi couldve learnt off anakin if he was left to his own devices.

Once the jedi went down this path the only answer is to wipe them out and get rid of sids. Which is what happens. The force decides to try again and uses luke to put Anakin back on track etc etc

Left with Luke who is with out doubt the purest force user of the whole trilogy.

Sorry cant go on, must go to bed! (3.45am)

 

So it has no will it just is.

It has no will as "free choice" as you understand it. It is however driven to balance itself in physical nature. Our story is the physical manifestation of how that balance in the universes beings occurs in realtime. It's not the "will of the force" but the Force itself.