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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Is it the Force's will that the Jedi be destroyed?

Discussion in 'Archive: Revenge of the Sith' started by soxtalon, Feb 9, 2005.

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  1. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000
    I'm not talking about the Jedi returning to Coruscant, I'm talking about Sidious blowing up the Jedi temple.

    It's better than leaving the Jedi's headquarters intact knowing that anyone can become jedi just by looking up every bit of their archives that show who the Jedi are and how they became Jedi. Killing off the Jedi is NOT enough to keep them extinct because their temple is the one thing that can revive their legacy and if you destroy the temple, you destroy any chance the Jedi Order had of being ressurrected.
     
  2. Obi_Frans

    Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2003
    Palpatines overconfidence in thinking he wiped out the entire Order overrides this, much like he thought his reign would never end; his confidence in thinking the Jedi were gone was even bigger.

    - O_F
     
  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Hell, for all we know, Sidious lives in the Temple. The ultimate kick in the groin.
     
  4. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "I don't disagree with you, but it's irrelevant to my point. Yoda *is* attacking, and *with* Force lightning."

    "It's totally relevant. A Jedi can attack. They just cannot attack first or with their emotions."


    Okay, you are reading my posts, but not getting my point. I think I need to reiterate the first argument, because you are now implying I said something that I never did.

    I never said Jedi *don't* attack, and I never said they *had* to attack in anger. I even brought up the example of Qui-gon to show how a Jedi *should* fight. I was originally talking about Yoda attacking with Force lightning, and the point was brought up that he was simply redirecting the lightning, as if this made any difference. If it *did* make any kind of difference, then Yoda would simply have sent it in another direction other than Dooku every time. The fact that he *did* send it back at Dooku makes it an "attacK', regardless of whether he created the lightning on his own, or simply "redirected" it.

    And for those who think that Yoda can *only* redirect it, I would ask this. How would Obi-wan know how to defend against it, and how would Yoda know how to "redirect" it, if they hadn't had any experience with Force lightning? Since the Sith have been thought to be extinct for an thousand years, it seems pretty obvious that someone in the Jedi order is capable of generating Force lightning for training for the very scenario of Obi-wan coming face-to-face with a Sith, and easily countering a Force lightning attack. Keep in mind that *all* the Force users in these films, both Jedi and Sith, have used all the same powers at one point or another.

    "Again, we are in agreement. Again, Yoda *is* attacking with Force lightning, regardless of where it originally came from, or who used it first."

    "See above."


    I would say the same thing. This was all I was ever saying all along.

    "The reason it makes a difference is that it just occured to Mace that Palpatine would never go down easily. He won't ever surrender to the Jedi. And even if he were to, then he would never be convicted for his crimes. He remembered that Nute Gunray had been arrested and managed to walk away. Mace saw that Palpatine was trying to manipulate Anakin. Mace isn't the quickest bulb in the bunch."

    So the reason Mace originally decides to arrest Palps is because he's an idiot? That's interesting, because your very own quote doesn't state this.
    "Mace was going to do the right thing by arresting him, but after Palpatine does the lightning, he changes his mind."

    I doubt very much you are going to find a Lucas quote stating that Mace did the right thing because he's stupid, or that he changed his mind and ended up doing the wrong thing because he finally got smart.

    "Yes, but a lot of people didn't catch that when TPM first came out."

    Fine, but it still happened, and it's still significant, and shouldn't be brought up as an afterthought. I would think that, after all this time, you wouldn't confuse me with those folk. ;)

    "Mace was going to do the right thing by arresting him, but after Palpatine does the lightning, he changes his mind."

    Again, you are proving my point. The *only* thing that changed his mind was the lightning - which, again, has nothing to do with Mace thinking about the Senate and courts, either prior to or after the lightning, so your reasoning that Mace was smart or dumb with regards to his intentions, or what Palps would do if kept alive has no bearing whatsoever.

    "Killing off the Jedi is NOT enough to keep them extinct because their temple is the one thing that can revive their legacy and if you destroy the temple, you destroy any chance the Jedi Order had of being ressurrected."

    Except that, even if Palps had destroyed the temple, the saga would still unfold as it did, so your point is moot. Obviously, Palps (no anyone else here) does not consider the temple, itself, to be anywhere near the kind of threat you make it
     
  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    It's an attack after the fact. Once a fight has begun and the attack was initiated by others, then whatever Yoda does not matter. There is nothing that says Yoda or any other Jedi cannot send a Lightning attack back at the Sith. Yoda doesn't think it's bad, otherwise he wouldn't have used it in the film. He didn't hesitate with that, but he did with Yoda throwing his saber at the Clonetrooper guarding the Temple.

    Ever thought it might've been in the Archives memory? Ever thought that Yoda's Master told him about it, because he had been told how to do it by his Master? Or that Yoda's Master had been alive during the last battle with the Sith and learned all the tricks, and recorded it in the Archives, on the off chance that the Sith might come back? And that with the return of the Sith, the Jedi Knights and Masters began reading up on the Sith.

    Something to consider.

    No, I didn't. I said that Mace was going to arrest Palpatine. But then it had occured to him that killing Palpatine was the only option left, because he realized in that moment, that they couldn't get a conviction. You're the one who insinuated that Mace was an idiot in the first place.


    Actually, we don't know what's going on in his mind. Only that Lucas said that he changes tactics after being attacked again. But it can be reasonably speculated that it occured to him just then, which is what he says to Anakin after the attack is over.

    MACE WlNDU: "I am going to end this once and for all."

    ANAKIN: "You can't kill him, Master. He must stand trial."

    MACE WlNDU: "He has too much control of the Senate and the Courts. He is too dangerous to be ke
     
  6. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "Something to consider."

    You think reading from a book (or hologram, since books don't exist in AGFFA) is sufficient to learn to manipulate Force lightning? Boy, I didn't realize it was so easy to master. I guess Dooku really didn't know what he was talking about.

    I'm not sure what you have against Yoda being capable of such a power. Both the ROTJ and AOTC novelizations talk about Jedi learning to get past the Dark Side, rather than avoiding it altogether. Yoda is actively probing the Dark Side in AOTC when he hears Qui-gon. Using Force lightning doesn't automatically make one a Sith.

    "You're the one who insinuated that Mace was an idiot in the first place."

    darth-sinister: "Mace saw that Palpatine was trying to manipulate Anakin. Mace isn't the quickest bulb in the bunch."

    This preceded my post.

    "Actually, we don't know what's going on in his mind. Only that Lucas said that he changes tactics after being attacked again. But it can be reasonably speculated that it occured to him just then, which is what he says to Anakin after the attack is over."

    Perhaps, but the lightning shouldn't have been the cause of this change of heart, since it doesn't impact Palpatine's ability to "beat the rap" either way. It's as much a quick and ridiculous decision as Anakin's choice to become a Sith.

    The only think I can think of is that Palpatine shocked some sense into him. ;)
     
  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Uh, what? Proof, please. What the hell do you think is on those shelves in the Archives? Books. Just cause you don't see someone reading a book, doesn't mean that they do not exist.

    Yet the Jedi Temple still stands. For Luke, he has to only walk into the Temple and have all the knowledge and teachings.

    I didn't say it does. But no Jedi uses it according to Lucas. Learning to get past it by not using it. And Yoda probes the Dark Side to try and find Sidious. He is not using it.

    I said quick, not bright. There's a difference. Brightest means stupid. Quickest means he's slow on the uptake.

    It matters because it reaffirms even more what he's just seen and what Anakin told him. He's too powerful. Both with the Force and with his political connections. Sidious knows that by attacking again, he will force Mace to make a choice that will prompt Anakin to make one. It's all about manipulation.

    Probably.
     
  8. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "Uh, what? Proof, please. What the hell do you think is on those shelves in the Archives? Books. Just cause you don't see someone reading a book, doesn't mean that they do not exist."

    No, but when Lucas says they don't exist, then they don't exist.
    So here we go, I'm meeting with George, playing the tape and showing him these short cuts, and he sees the manual and then he stops the tape and says, "You know, you did something wrong here." And I said, "What did we do?" He said, "In the Star Wars universe, there are no books. So, go ahead and put a laptop in." So that kind of exchange with George in terms of what the Star Wars universe is, and what kind of backstories there are in Star Wars, is a great opportunity that not many people have a chance to benefit from. - quote

    "Yet the Jedi Temple still stands. For Luke, he has to only walk into the Temple and have all the knowledge and teachings."

    Who was talking about Luke?

    "I didn't say it does. But no Jedi uses it according to Lucas."

    I guess it's my turn now to say PPOR.

    "I said quick, not bright. There's a difference. Brightest means stupid. Quickest means he's slow on the uptake."

    That's one hell of a hair you're splitting.

    "It matters because it reaffirms even more what he's just seen and what Anakin told him. He's too powerful. Both with the Force and with his political connections."

    I guess that's one way it can be taken.
     
  9. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
     
  10. TheLightSide

    TheLightSide Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2005
    Destroyed NO, but they were changed. They can get married after RoTJ, because Leia the Jedi is probably going to get married.
     
  11. Obi_Frans

    Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2003
    Leia isn't a Jedi at the end of RotJ; nor is there any hint that she'll become one. If anything, she'll go back into into politics.

    - O_F
     
  12. soxtalon

    soxtalon Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002


    BUT it could have been anybody is my point. WHomever pushed the Force out of balance by gaining power would have stoked the reaction. I'm just trying to say that beyond gaining political control, there is nothing specific about Palpatine that stokes it.

    Interesting interpretation...but wrong. It's like a force field. Yoda isn't using the gun....like a lightsaber he is mirroring it back. As Palpatine tries to intensify his bolts to get through of course it hurts himself more...

    Pl- Hey first of all...it's sOx....you've been calling me sax for awhile and I just wanted to clear it up. sOx...


    .

    THAT is the apparancy. THe fact that they don't believe a sith lord could bring them tot heir knees or that he existed. They are no longer connected to the force as well as they used to be.


    OF- Ok my baad wording...Lucas says it's because of Palpatine...and I agree to a point. My point is that it's because of killing palpatine for what he is doing. THe real reason the Force is brought into balance is because the sith in power are taken out. SLIGHT difference. Palpatine happens to be the Sith in power, but it's not a specifically against palpatine kind of reaction, just a reaction to the sith being in power.


    With jedi as powerful as yoda and obi-wan, I think they can recognize a force attack and they would know how to absorb or redirect a force attack. It has to do with understanding hte Force. I don't need to have ever fired a gun before to know to wear a bullet proof vest.

    Especially when you consider the Temple has all the historical records most likely dating back to the time when the sith were prevalent.


     
  13. OBIWAN-JR

    OBIWAN-JR Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 2002
    >>>>Leia isn't a Jedi at the end of RotJ; nor is there any hint that she'll become one. If anything, she'll go back into into politics.

    Not so sure about that, Frans....


    YODA: [....] Luke, when gone am I (cough), the last of the Jedi will you be. Luke, [b]the Force runs strong in your family. Pass on what you have learned[/b], Luke... (with great effort) There is... another...Sky...Sky...walker.

    ---------------

    LUKE: There's more. It won't be easy for you to hear it, but you must. If I don't make it back, [b]you're the only hope for the Alliance[/b].

    LEIA: Luke, don't talk that way. You have a power I....I don't understand and could never have.

    LUKE: You're wrong, Leia. You have that power too. [b]In time you'll learn to use it as I have.[/b] The Force is strong in my family. My father has it...I have it...and...my sister has it.

    [i]-- StarWars, Episode VI: Return of the Jedi, 1983[/i][hr][/blockquote]
    I think that the hints are very much there...


    -JR :)
     
  14. Obi_Frans

    Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2003
     
  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Luke's going to train her to become a Jedi. This much is clear without the eu. He has to pass on what he has learned and she is going to be his first Padawan. And Lucas had planned to show Han and Leia get married, but decided to leave it with just the victory celebration.

    Actually, it has to do with the fact that the Dark Side has clouded their vision.

    No, it's because Luke has to re-start the Jedi Order. It has nothing to do with if he survives the Sith or not. It has to do with re-starting everything.

    She's Luke's brother and thus would want to learn the ways of the Force, like her brother and father before her. And outside of the eu, who says that she'd stay in politics? And Obi-wan and Yoda would tell Luke that the age limit no longer applies. Since Luke turned out well at his age, they'd be training at this age and younger.
     
  16. Obi_Frans

    Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2003
    Luke: "If i don't make it back, then you're the only hope for the alliance"

    The sole purpose of that scene, much like the whole "There is another" addition, is to spread doubt that Luke will survive his faceoff with Vader. Not to establish what he has planned for the future Jedi Order, he isn't even thinking that far - that's why the focus of what he's telling Leia is that he won't be back. That's why Leia starts crying when he walks away.

    I say Leia would stay in politics because that's how she starts out; trying to help the Rebellion and fight for the good of the Senate. Counter that with the literal zero acknowledgement of her towards any possible Jedi interest and i just don't see how anyone can be so certain she's going to become a Jedi after RotJ. I've read the EU, but i'm just talking solely about the films here - and i don't see it.

    And Obi-Wan and Yoda would not tell Luke the age limit no longer applies - especially not Yoda. They, well, Luke, wouldn't be as strict as the old Order was - but there's no way they'd just throw that out of the window, there's a very good reason the age limit exists. I don't think i'd have to insert George Lucas quotes about that matter, since i stole most of them from you :p

    - O_F
     
  17. tee4jc85

    tee4jc85 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2005
    Here's the deal folks:

    Luke does not know if he will survive his duel with Vader. This speculation is built up starting in ESB. I dont see how anyone is arguing this point...so O_F is right. Luke makes it clear that he is just banking on his feeling that there is still good in Vader. And even if Luke is right, Luke cant be sure if he can convince Vader to turn back...especially with the Emporer egging him on during the fight. On top of that, Luke has to face his own fears and worries about himself being seduced to the darkside during that duel. Obi-Wan knows this, Yoda knows this, Luke knows this.

    The Jedi Order DOES CHANGE after ROTJ (although this point in general is kinda mute considering a casual fan doesnt give a heep about it after ROTJ, the audience is supposed to feel everything came round robin and the alliance won, Anakin is a happy force ghost, everything is hunky dorey and thats the end of it).

    #1, the end of ROTS makes it clear the surviving Jedi realize they effed up in some way. I dont feel like reciting the Obi-Wan and Yoda quotes to back this up, im counting on you guys having substantial star wars knowledge enough for me to not have to do that.

    #2, even people not into the EU ( like me ) know that Luke heads the knew Order, and that he himself got married, as did Leia, who while not have become a full fledged Jedi WAS still trained in the ways of the force, if only a little.

    so obviously, changes were made in some way.

    listen, im not into the EU one little bit, and I can tell you from that standpoint that after watching ROTJ, it is very much assumed that after the end of the film, that Leia and Han will get married, that Luke will start the new Jedi Order, and that Leia will be trained in some way.

    im guessing if I got that from it, most other people would too.
     
  18. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "My point is that the Jedi have knowledge in the Archives memories. Knowledge of what has transpired before and knowledge of the Force. All any Jedi has to do is look it up in the Archives and know what the Jedi did against the Sith."

    I know they have that knowledge - I just find it hard to swallow that this power can be countered simply by studying about it. In Obi-wan's case with the lightsaber, maybe. Actually absorbing it and sending it back? Nah.

    "From the script.: Blinding bolts of energy, evil lightning, shoot from the Emperor's hands at Luke."

    This is reasoning, not proof. If it's so evil to use, then why does Yoda send it back at Dooku? Sorry, but the "Yoda didn't create it" argument is weak. If Yoda can absorb it, then it stands to reason that he knows how to create it as well.

    "Thus they can use the Lightning, whereas the Jedi don't, because they do not get angry."

    I'm curious...was Yoda "angry" when he "redirected" the "evil" lightning back at Dooku? The amount of word play going on here to create artificial distinctions is really getting strained.

    "Not to mention, we never see the Jedi use it or discuss it."

    Again, this is not proof. Point of fact, you just recently accused me of using such reasoning to show that books don't exist in AGFFA.

    "BUT it could have been anybody is my point. WHomever pushed the Force out of balance by gaining power would have stoked the reaction. I'm just trying to say that beyond gaining political control, there is nothing specific about Palpatine that stokes it."

    But it wasn't "anybody". It was Palpatine, just as Lucas said. *That* is the point.

    "It's like a force field. Yoda isn't using the gun....like a lightsaber he is mirroring it back. As Palpatine tries to intensify his bolts to get through of course it hurts himself more..."

    "Mirroring" it, is he? Not when he absorbs Dooku's lightning. I love how you guys make Force lightning sound like the easiest thing in the world to do with these simplistic terms. Force lightning is *supposed* to be one of the greatests shows of FOrce use, and yet it's supposed to just bounce off of Yoda? Too bad it didn't do this when Palps first blasts him.

    "Pl- Hey first of all...it's sOx....you've been calling me sax for awhile and I just wanted to clear it up. sOx..."

    Show me one post where I did this.

    "THe real reason the Force is brought into balance is because the sith in power are taken out. SLIGHT difference. Palpatine happens to be the Sith in power, but it's not a specifically against palpatine kind of reaction, just a reaction to the sith being in power."

    Lol. It's actually a *real* difference from what Lucas says. Balance is brought about when Palps is killed. Lucas states this specifically. Why you continue to dance around it is beyond me.

    "#2, even people not into the EU ( like me ) know that Luke heads the knew Order, and that he himself got married, as did Leia, who while not have become a full fledged Jedi WAS still trained in the ways of the force, if only a little."

    This sentence is sooooo contradictory, it's not even funny.


     
  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Yes, but you're missing my point. Yoda told Luke that the Force runs strong in his family. He must pass on what he has learned. Meaning he must pass it along to his sister. "There is another" is in direct relation to "If I don't make it back..."

    Yes, but Leia has already used the Force. The film ends such as it does, but it is very much implied that Luke will teach her and that she will want to learn. As Luke said, "In time you'll learn to use it as I have." She doesn't object to that notion.

    I didn't say it would go out the window, but Luke isn't going to limit himself to it. He and Leia are both examples of the benefits of being raised by families.
     
  20. Thulium

    Thulium Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    I think that Lightning is a "Sith Ability" in that there's really not a "Jedi-Way" to use lightning. I don't think I've ever read that the Jedi really can't use it, but what would a Jedi do with it? Lightning isn't the most effective way to stop a foe, but what it does is kill them slowly and painfully and really bring out their negative emotions. I think also that torturing someone to death really involves pushing out your fear and anger and other darkside traits. Basically I think this would mean that if a Jedi had a reason to go there, they basically could but the question remains: Why?

    For a Sith, the answer is clear. Force Lightning is powerful in that feeds off your anger and therefore feeds itself by making the recipient of said lightning pretty angry as well! Torturing someone to death is not a particularly useful skill for a Jedi.

    As to the topic question, everything I've read shows that the Will of the Force is entirely benevolent, it is selfless and unifying. The Jedi Way is to listen to the Will of the Force and trust that it will guide you toward Peace and Justice for all. The Will of the Force is that the Sith would be destroyed and balance be restored. However, the Will of the Sith is imposed upon the Force. Instead of the benevolent and selfless Will controlling Destiny (a balanced Force), we see the Revenge of the Sith actively working malevolently and very selfishly to dominate Destiny (an unbalanced Force). The Prophecy basically shows how the Will of the Force overcomes the will of the Sith and balance is restored. As the Sith rise to power, a shadow grows over the Force, diminishing the Jedi's ability to commune with the Force and we see the Force going further and further out of Balance. Once Darth Sidious and Darth Vader are destroyed by Anakin Skywalker in a selfless act to save Luke, there is nothing left to push the Force out of Balance and peace and justice can finally be restored.

    EDIT: I just had another thought about the meaning of "Balance" to the Force. Perhaps Obi-Wan was referring to a Balance when he instructed Luke... Luke: "You mean it controls your actions?" Obi-Wan: "To an extent, but it also obeys your commands." Perhaps the Sith only use the latter, imposing only their selfish will upon the Force and never listening to the Force as their guide. A a balanced Force-user like a Jedi will have a balance in his life between issuing commands and listening to the Will of the Force to guide them toward peace and justice, but the unbalanced Sith impose only their selfish Will. The Prophecy was that the balance that was violently pushed asunder by the Sith would be restored by the Chosen One: the son of suns.
     
  21. DT421

    DT421 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Not to get too involved in the lightning being a Sith/Dark Side/Evil power debate, but when the Emperor takes a break, in the middle of frying Luke, to say this:

    EMPEROR: Your feeble skills are no match for the power
    of the dark side. You have paid the price for
    your lack of vision.


    ? it would seem that lightning as a Dark Side power only, is pretty much implied.
     
  22. soxtalon

    soxtalon Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002

    .

    This is yoda though...probably the greatest jedi in the order. It's not out of the realm of possibility that he could do it just by study...


    Is it evil to simply use a force field? It's similar to that...Once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny. Yoda wouldn't want to do anything evil like that...


    Ok we are really arguing about the same thing...My point is that the Force is stimulated by the power shift, not by the individual. Palpatine is the cause of the power shift. therfore Palaptine has to be taken down

    IS martial arts easy??? To Bruce Lee it was. Yoda is the Bruce Lee of the Force. He is the greatest master. Lightning would be easy to absorb/deflect most likely...


    Not you...look at the first 2 letters after the quote. PL not you...


    It's NOT AT ALL different from what Lucas says. Balance is brought about when Palps is killed? Why? Lucas has also said that balance is restored when the sith are destroyed. Why? Because it's the power causing the Force to slip out of balance at that point...



     
  23. tee4jc85

    tee4jc85 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2005
    listen to Sox you will...:-B
     
  24. DT421

    DT421 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Balance to the Force is the balance between good and evil. When the Sith begin to gain power in the Galaxy, through corruption and manipulation, the Force begins to lose this Balance:

    ?One of thematic issues here is how Palpatine becomes Chancellor. Telling how he moved to the next level, and then when you see all of the films together it will all make a lot more sense. But this is kind of a very small thematic issue that transcends all six movies as opposed to something that's actually neatly tied up in this particular movie alone. Step one is that Palpatine becomes Chancellor, and you'll see in Episode II that he then makes another step (Emergency Powers), and in Episode III he makes another step (Emperor)."

    --George Lucas

    "As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD commentary.


    The Sith have taken the Force out of Balance through corruption, manipulation and abuse of the Force for purposes of greed and lust for power:

    "If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is grey. In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that The Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces. All of this shall be explained in Episode 2, so I can't say any more!"

    -- George Lucas


    It isn?t just that the Sith must be destroyed. It?s also about how the Sith are destroyed. It?s not as simple as just killing them to restore Balance to the Force. Compassion has to triumph over greed:

    "The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. The issue of greed, of getting things and owning things and having things and not being able to let go of things, is the opposite of compassion?of not thinking of yourself all the time. These are the two sides?the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction."

    ?-George Lucas

    "The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth," he continues, "They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith, page 213


    When Luke finally stops trying to reach Anakin and finally focuses on Vader, through his own temptation of the Dark Side, he finally understands Vader, thereby gaining compassion for him. He spares Vader?s life and throws his sword down, lets go of his attachment to his father and would rather sacrifice himself, than kill him. This is compassion directly facing greed and overcoming it. This act of Luke?s compassion, has a profound effect upon Vader and out of compassion for his son, he kills the Emperor, sacrificing himself instead, knowing it would cost him his life:

    "I think it is obvious that [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The ?phantom menace? refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader?also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction and Qui-Gon are correct?Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice.
     
  25. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "This is yoda though...probably the greatest jedi in the order. It's not out of the realm of possibility that he could do it just by study..."

    LOL...you go right on ahead and believe this.

    "Is it evil to simply use a force field? It's similar to that...Once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny. Yoda wouldn't want to do anything evil like that..."

    In case you didn't notice, this turned out *not* to be true for Anakin and Luke. Anakin was redeemed regardlous - and even became a Force ghost - and Luke prevailed despite using the Dark Side against his father.

    This was a warning, not a statement of fact.

    "IS martial arts easy??? To Bruce Lee it was. Yoda is the Bruce Lee of the Force. He is the greatest master. Lightning would be easy to absorb/deflect most likely..."

    Based on your above logic, Bruce Lee could have become the master he was simply by reading a book. See how ridiculous that sounds in the context of the real world?

    "Lucas has also said that balance is restored when the sith are destroyed. Why? Because it's the power causing the Force to slip out of balance at that point..."
    "The Sith are destroyed and Balance is brought back to the Force, but it?s only because compassion triumphs over greed in the end."[/i]

    The only people who know about this compassion are Luke, Palpatine and Vader - two of whom don't survive the battle, so no one else knows about it. Vader finally regains his compassion, and with such kills the Emperor, but this doesn't mean his compassion, in and of itself, altered the balance in any way.
     
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