Is it the Force's will that the Jedi be destroyed?

I was kinda thinking about this last night. What do you guys think about the parallel between this and Noah's Ark? The Force being God, of course. It was God's will to sorta rid the world of impurity; wash it clean with a new slate.

Anyone else see the similarities? Perhaps it was the Force's Will to clean the Jedi Order of arrogance and overconfidence?

 

Perhaps it was the Force's Will to clean the Jedi Order of arrogance and overconfidence?
why would the force try to destroy that which doesn't exist?
i don't see them as arrogant or overconfident at all. they were just good people doing what they believed was in the best interest of the galaxy. they can't see the big picture, but it's not like they aren't trying or have given the force the finger...

they jedi care when noone else does, and lay down their lives for the greater good.

as you may understand i don't buy into this apocalyptic notion.
i think it's this simple: the force gave the galaxy a weapon to face the dark times ahead -anakin. from now on it's up to the galaxy to decide the future. use the weapon correctly and balance will be brought. use it the wrong way, and he will become antichrist. the galaxy is responsible for what happened. fortunately the galaxy corrected its mistakes and set things straight.

but that being said, the force is always there if one seeks knowledge and guidance -even power. but the basic idea still reamins: once the chosen one is born, you're basically on your own. this is not about the force doing what is right for everyone. it's about "mankind" creating its own destiny.

 

Sorry Mebe, but Luke?s mentors know it as well. According to Lucas, Yoda knows exactly why Luke failed in the cave ? by knowing how Luke should have approached the ?domain of evil?:

?Part of the going into the tree is learning about the Force. Learning about the fact that the Force is within you, and at the same time, you create your own bad vibes. So, if you think badly about things or you act badly, or you bring fear into a situation, you're going to have to defend yourself or you're going to have to suffer the consequences for that. In this particular case, he takes his sword in with him, which means he's going to have combat. If he didn't, he wouldn't. He's creating this situation in his mind because, on a larger level, what caused Darth Vader to become Darth Vader is the same thing that makes Luke bring that sword in with him. And so, just as later on we find out Darth Vader is actually his father - so he is part of himself - but he has the capacity to become Darth Vader simply by using hate and fear and using weapons as oppose to using compassion and caring and kindness. But that's the big danger of the series, is that he will become Darth Vader.?

George Lucas ? TESB Commentary

Luke, looking down at his mechanical hand, then back at is father?s stump, is visually and symbolically connected to Luke seeing his face in Vader?s mask in the cave. It?s then that Luke understands what the Jedi had taught him. From that moment on, Luke?s approach is compassion for his father ? especially the ?twisted and evil? version of him. This is Luke confronting evil with compassion head on ? just as the Jedi had taught him to do.

And compassion had very much to do with altering the Balance to the Force. The Sith had to be destroyed and Luke did so, without killing a single one of them. Luke?s compassion for his father destroyed ?Vader?, then Anakin?s compassion for his son destroys the Sith.

See, the Jedi?s attempt at killing the Sith at the end of ROTS is very telling. They tried, failed and even made matters worse, especially by cementing the Chosen One?s destiny to the Dark Side. The Jedi learned that you can?t kill evil, or fight fire with fire, to bring the Force back into Balance. The evil has to be transformed and Luke starts this by transforming the evil within his father, through compassion.

Remember, Obi had a chance to help Luke out, by at least giving a better effort at trying to kill Vader, on DS1. Instead, he looks over at Luke, then back at Vader ? with a smile on his face, before sacrificing himself.

 

Then how do you explain Yoda's quote in AOTC?

 

Then how do you explain Yoda's quote in AOTC?
what quote are you thinking of?

 

Obi-Wan: "But he still has much to learn, Master. His
abilities have made him... well, arrogant."

Yoda: "Yes, yes. It's a flaw more and more common among
Jedi. Too sure of themselves they are. Even the older, more
experienced ones."

 

They tried, failed and even made matters worse, especially by cementing the Chosen One?s destiny to the Dark Side.

Well Anakin cemented his own place to the darkside the minute he sold his soul to Sidious for false power to save his wife.

 

Obi-Wan: "But he still has much to learn, Master. His
abilities have made him... well, arrogant."

Yoda: "Yes, yes. It's a flaw more and more common among
Jedi. Too sure of themselves they are. Even the older, more
experienced ones."
well the jedi aren't perfect... there will always be bad apples. but i don't see how that is reason for extermination.

it doesn't seem to be a widespread problem. our main characters (except for anakin) doesn't come accross as arrogant or overconfident imo. yoda, mace qui-gon and obi aren't flawed in that sense. more importantly, the order as an organization din't feel that it was above everyone else. it still submitted its authority to the people and the force. it showed no sign of wanting power for themselves. if that was the case, then i would agree that it needed to be wiped out. but they're not corrupt in that sense.

 

Yes but what Yoda was saying is that it's growing. He says that this arrogant trait is becoming more common in the Jedi. It's like bacteria growing and spreading. Perhaps the Force saw this and needed to really start things over differently.

 

Yes but what Yoda was saying is that it's growing. He says that this arrogant trait is becoming more common in the Jedi. It's like bacteria growing and spreading. Perhaps the Force saw this and needed to really start things over differently.
perhaps... but i don't think the force is that specific when executing its grand plan.

they order had already shown ability to change through qui-gon and obi wan. obi wan eventually acheiving the right balance. so if the order could change, then why destroy the jedi altogether?

 

Anakin was still conflicted as deep into the story as Mustafar. Even after killing Younglings and the Separatists, he experiences regret and the questioning of himself, as seen from the tears he was shedding:

"There's always this good in you. And the good part is saying 'what am I doing?'. Then the bad part kicks in and says 'I'm doing this for Padme, I'm doing this for the galaxy and so we can have a better life'. But the good part is always saying 'WHAT AM I DOING?!"

--George Lucas to Hayden Christensen, Hyperspace webdoc

Obi sealed the deal when he left Anakin to fate, on that lava bank.

 

"The thing that breaks Padme's heart in the end is the fact that Anakin says to hear, 'Come and join me. I have all the power now. I can rule the universe and you can do it with me.' So the idea of saving her life has become a minor issue. And that's when she says, 'Wait a minute. This is not what I want and you're not the guy I fell in love with!'"

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 52.

Anakin seals the deal when he won't even let Padme talk some sense into him. He may have been conflicted before she arrived, but when she expresses her disgust at what he's done and tells him she's going to leave him he's too far gone. There's not a single second from Padme's arrival to Obi defeating Vader where he shows any regret, guilt or sign of conflict over what he's done.

Originally, he was even supposed to beg Obi-Wan to help him off the bank ("Help me Master!") but George took it out because he didn't want Anakin to seem redeemable and he didn't want to garner too much sympathy for him.

- O_F

 

I still do not believe it was the Will of the Force that the Jedi be destroyed.

I still believe that when Qui-Gon took Anakin off of Tatooine and away from his mother, he unwittingly placed the Jedi on a collision course with a disastrous fate.

When QG took Anakin away from his mother, the kid was behind the 8-Ball from the get-go. He had attachment/fear of loss issues, which he could not overcome and eventually cost the entire Galaxy.

I still do not believe that Anakin was ever meant to be a Jedi. No one has ever stated that the Chosen One had to be a Jedi.

Had QG left Anakin on Tatooine, instead of manipulating chance cubes and gambling to ensure getting him off Tatooine, obviously the course of the future would have been different.

It was only the Chosen One?s destiny to bring Balance to the Force. Did Anakin really need to be trained as a Jedi? I think the manner in which Anakin does bring Balance back to the Force is great, in that he used no great Force/Jedi Art skills to rid the Galaxy of the Sith. He just withstood an assault from Sids, while simply picking him up and tossing him to his death. Not much training needed, or skill involved in that.

I believe the QG was right in that the Force placed Anakin in his path, but I don?t believe it told him to take Anakin from his mother. The result of QG taking Anakin away, eventually results in the Jedi getting purged. I don?t think the Force had done this on purpose.

 

DT, i agree a 100% with that.

Note also that Qui-Gon says it was meant to be that he meet Anakin, not that he actually take Anakin with him. It's interesting, to me, that Qui Gon had to cheat Anakin out of slavery, but that's beside the point. I think had Anakin stayed on Tattooine, Qui-Gon would've informed the Jedi - but they'd have kept it between them, making sure the Sith won't find out. Anakin and Shmi would be freed by the Larses eventually, and Anakin could actually grow up and naturally grow apart from his mother.

Basically, he'd be Luke.

10 years later(aotc), the Clone Wars break out. The Jedi know that a Chosen One is around, Anakin would find out about the wars and him being the "man who gives without any thought of reward" would want to help out. Again, he's Luke. His abilities wouldn't have made him arrogant since Shmi and the Larses would keep him humble - opposed to wielding a lightsaber and going around the galaxy swashbuckling around.

This is a Anakin who's capable of a lot; and still has a pure heart.

- O_F

 

O_F, this is what I originally posted.

They tried, failed and even made matters worse, especially by cementing the Chosen One?s destiny to the Dark Side.

When Obi left Vader on the bank, did it make matters better?

When Vader was left with nothing but the Dark Side and a respirator to sustain his existence, did this cement Anakin?s destiny to the Dark Side?

See, I wasn?t specifically speaking of the choices that Anakin made to cement his own fate, but was speaking on the Jedi?s approach to the situation. But when Obi leaves him there with nothing but an ?I hate you? as his last words to him, the ?time-card? has definitely been punched out for the day, so to speak.

Oh, and thanks for your last post. Just caught it. And absolutely, we agree that Luke?s journey shows us, I believe, how the Jedi should have handled Anakin all along. Great catch on the parallel, my friend.

 

The Force didn't want the Jedi wiped out. It just wants balance to the Force. Anakin made bad choices based on Palpatine's influence. The Jedi Purge was a result of Anakin's poor judgement and his insatiable appetite for power.

Yoda's knowledge of how to deal with the Lightning comes from either what's in the Archives memories or from his Master. In fact, Luke already knew how to call his Lightsaber to his hand in TESB, yet he never saw Obi-wan do it in ANH. Same with his dueling skills. Simple meditation and trust in the Force, allows one to do these things.

 

As I'm sure darth-sinister will quote for us, Lucas refers to a power that goes even higher than the Will of the Force: The Unifying Force, aka Destiny. It was not the Will of the Force (in fact this portion of history is in violent conflict with the Will of the Force), but it was certainly something that was allowed/predetermined by Destiny.

I believe that the Will of the Force is decidedly benevolent and the Jedi rely upon their trust in the Will of the Force as their guide as purveyors of peace and justice. The trouble with the Jedi was not that they were evil, but rather that they were too sure of themselves and their ability to handle evil. It is my humble opinion that Destiny determined that the Jedi needed a time of purging and the Will of the Sith was to take revenge for themselves. I believe that the Will of the Force, in cooperation with the Unifying Force, helped to spare Yoda and Obi-Wan from hands of the Sith so they could fulfill their place in destiny to restore balance to the Force.

To be clear, the Jedi were purged not because they "deserved" it, but rather because they were arrogant and failed to take preventative measures that could have avoided it. The Sith had been scheming for Millenia, refining their techniques and building bigger and better Mousetraps (...or Jedi Traps, rather) and the Jedi thought their knowledge and handling of the old Mousetraps would suffice.

 

I will...

Yes but it hadn't happened yet. As far as we know in the movie no one had turned...and anyways it is YODA's BELIEF as he espouses it...I think he would FOLLOW his own belief regardless of the truth of the matter. If I believe something is poison, am I going to eat it? Even if there's a chance it's not or later on it's proven not to be poison, you can bet at the time I'm NOT going to eat it

Not simply a book, but he wouldn't necessarily need 5 guys attacking him to know how to defend against 5 guys. OF course practical experience is better...but when it comes down to it it would be more dangerous to risk someone going to the dakr side. Yoda understood the theory and what was behind it, and was able to do it when push came to shove. Could every Jedi? Probably not...Luke obviously couldn't...but Yoda could and given how powerful yoda is, it's not that surprising...

Maybe I don't understand this...but who cares who knows? The fact is it happened due to Anakin's compassion...


OW-506 - good parallel to a point...

No not a reason for extermination...a reason for re-starting and change. If you can agree with that principle...it's a start. HOW the change happens is due to the choices Anakin makes.'

and for DT too-

I agree as well...I think Qui-gon was supposed to meet Anakin because of his rogueness and his outside the box type thinking. His mistake was presenting him to the jedi council that he didn't agree with most of the time. I think he was supposed to keep an eye on young anakin and "train" him whenever he had questions...let the boy grow into his own jedi, with only minor mentoring...

 

I dont believe it to be the forces will for the Jedi to be killed. However, I believe that in order for the balance to be restored to the force the Jedi Order had to be enlightened.

Everyone has a dark and a light side. Even the Jedi.

The important point to realise is that the dark side exists whether they want it to or not. In the PT the dark side is the place that anything they do not wish to own in themselves, or seems too dangerous for others to see, gets dumped to fester. Mostly their culture dumps it there for them but no matter how much they deny it, repress it, no matter how painful it can be to look at it, it is part of them. Anger, lust, hate, these are the things that can blow up in our faces if we do not consciously address them. But if the Jedi bring these energies to light before they explode unconsiously, they can use them creatively to enrich their relationships rather than destroy them. Some of this darkness they relegate to the shadows are those traits that are simply not culturally acceptable (within the order) and yet may be used to identify their 'faults', not get rid of them, but understand and live with them - helping us to make the right choices and bring a balance to themselves.

It may seem a frightening prospect to face a raging beast within, or the dragon on your shoulder as Stover put it in the ROTS novel. But heroic myths from all cultures show that facing the 'beasts' is a neccessity for human growth, and our own dreamlife shows us that approaching them brings insight rather than violation. Have you ever run with heart pounding terror from shadowy monsters in your dreams (Luke in Dagobah Cave)? I suggest it is just a part of yourself you've chucked in the shadow bin that urgently needs to be seen. If you explored it honestly the urgency and terror would cease, and an aspect of your personality, once hidden, would be safely returned to you. At first when you encounter these energies they seem wildly enraged but so would you be if you'd been locked in a dark hole for years. Once you can eye ball them they lose their seeming demonic power. A power you largely give to it by being gripped with fear. Its vital for people to face fears not with their emotions, but with knowledge.

This fear of the shadow has been keenly cultivated by the Jedi Order...and 'The Shadow' (Sidious) has taken advantage of this.

The jedi code stuck a huge NO ENTRY sign on the dark of the jedi's psyches. With that began the de-spiritualisation of each Jedi, the Order and the galaxy. The Jedi ancestors cast the physical as inferior, equating bodily desires and their satisfaction with the dark side. Externally this indiscriminate welding of the 'denial' cane has lead to problems in the Jedi order. Some Jedi have these feelings but dont know how to live/deal with them. Instead they make bad choices. They act on these attachments and feelings without truly knowing how to understand them. Or they follows the laws of the Order and keep them locked up...but these beasts always come out - unless you face them.

Even the Christian hero tangoed with the dark side of himself for 40 days and nights. He did not run from it though. Also, in the Crucifixion, his self transformation was made possible by him living through his most terrifying fear - that God, everything he had stood for, had forsaken him. He let his fear, the most painful darkest experience in his soul, be seen and fully felt and this made resurrection possible. In this symbolic description of self salvation we find dark and light inextricably mixed together in the search for wholeness.

The Jedi as seen in the OT are a great example of this (as is Qui Gon). They faced their fears. Let go of their attchments and were 'ressurected' because of it. By acting through compassion and letting go of things the Jedi from the OT also put an end to the Sith rule. By controlling their own darkness and by not adding to the darkness around them the dark side didnt have any power over them. However in the PT they dont let go. They try to keep things.

There is an

 

Well, we sorta agree sox. I don?t believe Anakin was ever supposed to be in the Jedi Order in the time span of the PT. I think Anakin was destined to travel the path that Luke took in the OT.

I mean, as soon as Anakin was separated from his mother, things started heading down the wrong path.

QG, taking Anakin away, put the Jedi on a collision course with an ill fate. I think this is why the Jedi ended up getting purged. Not because of the Force?s Will. I actually think the Force was doing it?s best to try and help the Jedi, once QG made that mistake on Tatooine and altered the course of Anakin's destiny.

 

If Anakin was indeed created by the will of the force it was done so he could destroy the sith and bring balance to the force.

How that would happen was not set in stone, however, the end result was.

The results from fulfilling this destiny IMO would always result not only in what the prophecy speaks of but also in the enlightenment of the Jedi Order.

 

That's really good. I like your words doc.

 

Yep.

 

Actually we completely agree and only my admittedly bad wording makes it appear less so. By coming to the Jedi on his own...I meant coming to be his own "jedi" for lack of a better term. Coem to his maturity in his own powers.

Master S-
I agree which is why I maintain the Force wanted the jedi to change...enlightenment can only come through a true relationship with the Force. Arrogance, stagnancy decries this relationship.