PT is it the jedi council fault anakin turned to the dark side?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by deadly jp, Aug 25, 2014.

?

jedi council's fault for anakin turning to the darkside

Yes 6 vote(s) 28.6%
No 15 vote(s) 71.4%
Moderators: Bazinga'd
  1. deadly jp Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2014
    star 1
    Is it me or the jedi council are stupid and its there fault for anakins turning to he darkside for e.g. they send obi wan and anakin to save palaptine from count dooku and general grievous but they wouldnt let anakin go with obiwan to destory grievous on upatau, after both anakin and obi wan destorys grievous then the council could of confront palpantine and let him lay down his emergency powers instead of anakin spying on him. Anakin wouldn't be on corsuant so that means he wouldnt turn to the darkside plus if obiwan and anakin went back to corsuant, obiwan would be there with anakin so there's a more of a chance for anakin not turning.

    Another point is not making anakin a jedi master was also a bad mistake which made anakin tap into the dark side even more closer.

    What do you guys think? Discuss
    Last edited by deadly jp, Aug 25, 2014
  2. SkywalkerJedi02 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2013
    star 1
    I think they never really liked him and were always hesitant to give Anakin more power as I don't think they ever truly trusted him Obi-Won Kenobi did eventually and as he said loved him like a brother and I think he was starting to warn Mace Windu's respect before everything happened, as I said he was never truly respected by the majority of the Jedi council and therefore he always felt like an outsider which helped palpatine turn him to the dark side that and Anakin never having a father which palpatine later came which is a shame as Quai-Gon was a father figure to him at the beginning and could helped Anakin in his troubles with the council while keeping palpatine from manipulating Anakin all those years.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    deadly jp likes this.
  3. Darth Rycbar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2014
    star 1
    I think it's partially their fault for giving him so much power so quickly. He was a Jedi Master after only 13 years of training.
  4. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    The answer is in the question, is it the Jedi Council's fault Anakin turned to the dark side? Anakin turned to the dark side, not the Jedi Council. Last time I checked people are responsible for their own actions.

    I like to post this since people seem to think Mace was always "against" Anakin for some reason. Mace and Yoda trusted Anakin to go on his first solo mission even when Obi-Wan thought he wasn't ready.

    What does "they were always hesitant to give Anakin more power" even mean? How can the Council "give" Anakin power? You can't give a Jedi powers, powers aren't bestowed upon a Jedi like in a video game. It's not something you can learn from an ancient scroll or a dusty tome. The Council is not holding back any super special Force powers of their own, that's just not the way the Force works, especially for Jedi, it just doesn't work that way. Anakin basically knows everything Yoda knows, they're learning from the same book, Yoda just understands it better. There isn't any special training, it's all self-training. Yoda says "train yourself". The path to enlightenment is an individual's journey, it's not the same for everyone and it's not something you can be dragged along, you have to walk it yourself. You can be given guidance, little tips to help your perception, but it can't be given to you. In fact, sometimes mentors can sorta get in the way by guiding you too much, sometimes they really do "hold you back", just not in the way Anakin thinks, certainly not intentionally. That's when you have to go your own way, figure things out for yourself, like Qui-Gon did.

    If you're talking about political power, such as a seat on the Jedi Council, I'm not sure how they were "always" hesitant, since it only applies to ROTS, and of course Anakin does get a seat on the Council anyway.

    Why would Anakin's power even be particularly relevant? Like, why do they care? They're plenty powerful themselves. Why wouldn't they want Anakin to have more power? He is the Chosen One destined to destroy the Sith, it makes sense for them to want him to be as powerful as possible, they took him in specifically because he had great potential. There's just nothing in the movies that even hints that the Council are concerned about Anakin's power. It just reeks of Anakin's delusional and paranoid dark side influenced thinking, so it's always baffling when someone actually thinks there's any merit to it.


    The only power I can think of that Anakin wasn't aware of was the Force ghost thing, which apparently Yoda learned from Qui-Gon. Though one might look at this as an example of the Jedi not telling Anakin about the Force, I think Yoda had learned it relatively recently, and indeed when Yoda says he has more training for Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan is surprised at the idea. Training? This backs up the idea that once the Jedi are taught the fundamentals, it's up to them to master them, it's mostly self-training from there. I think this is also the idea in the end when Yoda says to Luke, "No more training do you require. Already know that which you need." Because being a Jedi is about being a Jedi, not about powers.
  5. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    It is not all their fault, but it was a contributing factor. Especially Windu. He makes it clear he never trusted Anankin. Had they nurtured rather than distrusted then all would have been well.
    Force Smuggler likes this.
  6. Dandelo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2014
    star 3
    Technically no, Anakin is responsible for his own actions.

    and he was stupid enough to believe a guy who pretended to "love democracy" and then told him "oh well I don't really know the secret, I kinda Bull ****** you there earlier, BUT but but...if we work together I'm sure we'll you know discover it, by the way kill the Jedi, the force will love you and give you stronger power, because dark side has cookies and the force just LOVES cookies" (you get the jist)

    However the council could have been more sympathetic to his needs, he was a slave who had left his mother when he was ten years old (so not your average Jedi then), they could have given him a bit of slack on occasion I think.
  7. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Voted "no" because "hell no" isn't an option.

    Anakin had options for dealing with a few Jedi Masters hurting his feelings.

    Like, I dunno, putting on his big boy underwear and recognizing that the Order does not revolve around him, prophecy or not.

    The Council could have assuaged his butthurt by sending him with Obi-Wan to fight Grievous. Anakin also had the option of recognizing that the Council's decision was not all about him, and that doing their best to catch the Sith Lord was a little more important than boosting his ego. That's also what asking him to spy on Palpatine was about. Setting Anakin's emotions aside, he was the best choice for a double agent.

    If Anakin had gone with Obi-Wan, he would have turned later on, probably as soon as they got back. Going with Obi-Wan would not have changed the fact that Anakin wanted his way, all the time, and had a personal vendetta against anyone who stood in the way of him getting what he wanted.

    As far as not given him the Master rank--the only thing the Council did wrong there was not telling Palpatine to suck it, that Anakin was not Council material, period. A guy who thinks he is above learning the same level of emotional control as others in the Order, has no business receiving the Master rank.

    The only person who can be faulted for Anakin turning is Anakin, and maybe Palpatine for making the option available to him.

    But primarily Anakin.
  8. Qui-Riv-Brid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2013
    star 3
    It's not the fault of any one decision per se but them as an order.

    They have their code which served them for thousands of years but rather than evolve it became rigid. They couldn't handle the reality of Anakin as the Chosen One. They didn't believe in him they had to accept him because of the return of the Sith. They couldn't ignore that he was a powerful being of the Force.

    There was no way they were going to let him go once they knew the Dark side was gaining power.

    Palpatine put Anakin on the Council for the very reason to isolate him. He knew the Council would try to use Anakin to spy on him. That's why he did it. He knew that by asking for Anakin to go after Greivous they wouldn't choose him.

    Palpatine was 10 moves ahead.

    They had no chance. They were so predictable in every response and every situation. He knew by telling Anakin about himself that the response would be exactly what it was.
    Last edited by Qui-Riv-Brid, Aug 25, 2014
    Force Smuggler likes this.
  9. Dandelo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2014
    star 3
    this scene just popped in my head reading that :p

    Anakin: you could be a little nicer though...admit it occasionally you think I'm alright

    Council: occasionally...maybe when you're not acting like a scoundrel

    Anakin: Scoundrel? scoundrel I like the sound of that...

    Council: please don't look at us like that

    Anakin: why not?

    Council: it makes us feel uncomfortable
    Anakin: sorry my masters *takes a seat*

    *Obi-Wan shakes his head like a disappointed dad because his kid missed a penalty shot*
    Iron_lord likes this.
  10. Cael-Fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2006
    star 2
    Yeah, I find the emphasis on Jedi "powers" in quantifiable terms, the debates over who was the "most powerful" along a numerical scale, to be missing the point. And I think the games, and TCW to some extent (in how "over-powered" it showed certain Jedi to be), contribute to this. When Anakin says "I will be the most powerful Jedi ever", he's supposed to come across as terribly misguided and completely misunderstanding what being a Jedi is all about.

    Exactly. When he says "I know there are things about the Force they aren't telling me," I went :rolleyes:
    That isn't how it works at all, Anakin. With how fundamentally you miss the point of Jedi-ness, how did you ever get Knighted?! If you haven't reached your potential as a Jedi, it's due to your inability (or more precisely, unwillingness) to master yourself. Not because your teachers are jealously conspiring to keep secrets from you.

    It's ironic that he thought they were keeping secrets and distrusting him when he was the one leading a double life and not trusting Obi-Wan.
  11. DARTHLINK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2005
    star 3
    I agree on all points, though I would like to play a bit of Devil's Advocate.

    If I were a Jedi Master, and standing before me was a ten year old kid who (a) was a slave on a desert planet, (b) whose mother is currently still a slave on said desert planet, I would be a little nicer to him. I wouldn't immediately say, "He's too dangerous, he has much darkness within him" I mean, wow, yeah, because we should totally expect a small child who was just freed from slavery, who is currently on a strange world, whose mother is still a slave on the planet he just left to totally do a 180 and get over all that. The kid's flippin' scared for his mother, what else do you think? He doesn't know what will happen to her, only that he will likely not be there to help her and just ten years later, his worst fears were realized.

    If I were a Jedi Master, I would've done something like walk up to the kid and say, "Anakin, we often don't do this for our fellow Jedi, but I suspect much of the fear we sense in you rests on your mother's safety. Why don't you and I return to Tatooine and see if we can't secure her freedom and put her on a safe planet such as Naboo or Coruscant." They don't do that. Instead they tell Anakin to forget about his mother, forget about the last ten years of his life and be like everyone else. There's a thing called 'accommodation'. It would be unlike the Jedi because, well, Anakin isn't like the other Jedi! He was brought from a desert planet where he was a slave, at age ten, into a world he has little understanding of. While I would still expect Anakin to follow the rules, I would still keep in mind exactly who he is and work around it.

    I'm not saying it's 100% their fault Anakin turned, I'm just saying that if they accommodated him a bit, maybe Anakin wouldn't have been so quick to dislike the Jedi.
  12. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    @DARTHLINK hit it on the nose. Of course it was Anakin's fault that he fell to the dark side, but the Council made a ton of mistakes in their handling of him which didn't help. When he was having premonitions about his mother, the best advice Obi-Wan had for him was "dreams pass in time." When he tells he's clearly being trouble Yoda basically does nothing. The Council saw a young man, an incredibly powerful young man in distress, and literally did nothing about it.
    Last edited by The Supreme Chancellor, Aug 27, 2014
    Force Smuggler and Iron_lord like this.
  13. Dandelo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2014
    star 3
    basically how I saw it too to be honest,

    Anakin had a few needs and problems the other Jedi didn't have, to treat everybody as if they are the same person with the same programming is a total fallacy and one people are beginning to accept in todays world, fortunately.
    Force Smuggler likes this.
  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'm not sure the Jedi Council knew how to help Anakin with his psychological issues.

    But here's a thought:

    If we are going to blame the Jedi Council for Anakin's turn, let's go all the way back to TPM.

    The Jedi Council should have listened to Yoda. They should have never agreed to train Anakin.

    There. It's the Jedi Council's fault.
    CT-867-5309 likes this.
  15. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    I think it is kind of implied in TPM that Obi-Wan was going to train Anakin with-or-without the Council's help. Obi-Wan would do anything to keep his promise to Qui-Gon, but Yoda probably thought Obi-Wan would be better off with the guidance of the Council rather than as some sort of rogue Jedi.
  16. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    It's not even implied, it's outright stated.

    Obi-Wan: Master Yoda, I gave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin.
    Yoda: Ugh.
    Obi-Wan: Without the approval of the Council if I must.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Aug 27, 2014
  17. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    True.

    Full circle, Anakin was right*.

    It's all Obi-Wan's fault.




    *And so was Dave Filoni in TCW season 4.
  18. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I just had Karate Kid on in the background, thought of S4 and laughed.

    Try to be best
    Cause you’re only a man
    And a man’s gotta learn to take it
    Try to believe
    Though the going gets rough
    That you gotta hang tough to make it

    History repeats itself
    Try and you’ll succeed
    Never doubt that you’re the one
    And you can have your dreams!

    You’re the best!
    Around!
    Nothing’s gonna ever keep you down
    You’re the Best!
    Around!
    Nothing’s gonna ever keep you down
    You’re the Best!
    Around!
    Nothing’s gonna ever keep you doowwwwwwwwn.

    I was like "OMG Elizabeth Shue is Satine".
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  19. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    There should be a third answer choice. Both.
  20. Dandelo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2014
    star 3
    or 4th

    no, it was totally his fault to believe a Sith lord that has lied to practically everyone for over 10 years, but the council should have been a bit more...aware of his mental state.

    or 5th choice:

    Obi-Ones fault, he was jealous, holding him back!!! (jokey choice)

    or

    6th choice

    Yoda's fault. His "suck it up kid" advice wasn't the best way to handle things

    :p
  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Stover actually does mention that this is one of the ways the tragedy could have Not Happened, in Star Wars on Trial, when Brin is extolling the virtues of Qui-Gon Jinn as "the only good PT Jedi".
  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Yeah. It's all Qui-Gon's fault.
  23. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Of course, Anakin's upbringing as a slave, and his instinctual Force use (in Podraces) might have contributed up with him going to the Dark Side anyway as an adult - but he wouldn't have had lightsaber training, mastery of the Mind Trick and Force Choke and so forth, without Jedi or Sith to train him.

    Might be why Jedi (normally) never train anyone who "slips through the cracks" - they'd rather have lots of untrained Darksiders than risk a trained Jedi become a Darksider.
    Let The Wookie Win likes this.
  24. zompusbite Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2014
    star 1
    We're all responsible for our choice. Anakin has turn over to the dark side because he choose to turn. It's not Obi-wan fault,neither the council but him. We can learn from even the most despicable master : Qui-Gon shows us that with Dooku. Mace did trust Anakin but not his actions and i think that among the jedi council, only he can understand Anakin. Indeed, they are very similar : they are man of action, excelent warrior's skills... Mace understand Anakin because he was like him : impatient, like to fight and have talent for chaos. It's was him who argued for the trainig of Anakin as padawan and that Obi-wan monitoring him while Yoda was against it. again, it's him and Yoda who have gave Anakin his first solo mission while Obi-wan doesn't agree. He have just exepted just like the others members of the jedi council, that Anakin would have demonstrate a little bit of jedi reserve, that he would have following his instincts, the teachings of his masters and the will of the Force instead of lets his emotions get the best of him. After all, he him-self, acknowledge it in the novel "Dark Lord - The Rise of Darth Vader" : " In fact, he hadn't killed the Jedi to serve Sidious, though Sidious was meant to believe just that. In his arrogance Sidious was unaware that Anakin had seen through him. Had the Sith Lord thought he would simply shrug off the fact that, from the start, Sidious had been manipulating Anakin and the war?

    No, he hadn't killed the Jedi in service to Sidious, or, for that matter, to demonstrate his allegiance to the order of the Sith. He had executed Sidious's command because the Jedi would never have understood Anakin's decision to sacrifice Mace and the rest in order that Padme might survive the tragic death she suffered in Anakin's visions.

    More important, the Jedi would have attempted to stand in the way of the decisions he and Padme would have needed to make regarding the fate of the galaxy.

    Beginning with the assassination of Sidious".
    If he was a true Jedi, he would have put all emotions aside and let the force flow through him to help Mace kill Palpatine, and restaured the balance of the Force (not waiting 23 years later and millions of deads to do it)
  25. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    [IMG]
Moderators: Bazinga'd