Is it time for EU to call it quits?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Aug 30, 2001.

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  1. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Okay I just had the most curious conversation on the Nonestica "WIZARD OF OZ" list of all places about star wars at yahoogroups. We were discussing continuity and changes in books and I'll give you a cut and paste of what I said....

    [I think you've hit the nail rather hard on the head regarding people's perceptions of a husband. If I may be so bold there was for a long time a rather heavy bias in "Star Wars's Book continuity" (Star Wars unlike Star Trek made every effort to continue it's continuity) that Luke Skywalker would have a beautiful female love interest whom he would "oooooo" ahhh and would "ooooo ahhh" back at but come the next book it would be completely ignored.

    Now this made sense during the Star Wars films because Lucas ultimatily had the great hand of God to putting the kabosh on it but people started getting frustrated with it. Some felt it would be changing too much if Luke got a love interest but eventually fans got sick of seeing Luke alone and one author wrote a popular female character (Mara Jade-who if you want a rundown in 12 word or less: Sleek, sexy, Redhead, Emperor's agent, Jedi, Cynical, Sarcastic, Good Heart, Meet Assaisin) whom married Luke and is being carried over.

    The problem unfortunately is with the laest series theres a bit of a backlash that there now is TOO MUCH continuity with characters that are new and less endearing than the original clogging up things.

    People felt their characters were being ignored and that it hardly resembled Star Wars anymore.]

    We have Luke, Mara, Han, Leia, and Lando....

    and we have the "next generation"

    It is possible that Star Wars NJO has stretched the series too far? That perhaps we have moved too far away from the light hearted romp into continuity minded madness?

    (ironic this conversation is about whether or not my love interest for Ozma should override a previous)

    Jania, Jacen, and Anakin are interesting charcaters but unfortunately I don't think they'll ever be as compelling as Han, Leia, and Luke were because of the complexities that live-action and George lucas's magic vision brought to them.

    and I also believe that the NJO at 24 books is destroying the Star Wars franchise by trying to give everyone an interaction filled world covering every character equally.

    Anakin: Hi
    *kills some Vong*
    Mara: I love you Luke
    Luke: I love you Mara
    *kills some Vong*
    next scene

    At this point I'm considering it may be a good idea if we said "pike it" and declared....

    "They all lived happily ever after"

    and let writers write stories about Jania, Anakin, Luke, etc in smaller stories that took place in the already vast continuity we've made for them.

    Luke vs. the Empire isn't so bad when the Empire is still at the height of it's power....

    Nor is a romance between Han and Leia...

    Forgive me if I think it's time for the continuity to be put an end to or everyone will eventually be forced to watch characters which should be immortal grow old, wither, and die in agony when they should be by loved ones living the rest of their lives in peace.
  2. PrinceXizor Former TF.N Foreign Book Cover Staff

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2001
    star 5
    Yeah, that's a bit what I'm thinking right now. I don't know how it could really evolve and be intersting if it were to continue after NJO. But nevertheless, being stuck within sith-prequel-classic-empire-njo doesn't seems good either... I dunno. AsI said in some other threads, wait and see what LFL has up their sleeves...
  3. Ben_Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2001
    star 5
    well, it still attracts thousands maybe millions of avid readers so i doubt LFL would stop EU altogether. as long as there is money to seep out of it, they'll do it.

    besides, personally i think the NJO has a great story line. it introduces fresh faces and new alien races with a totally bizarre technology and culture. we dont know whats going to happen. will it have the NR back to being a rebellion? will the vong win? will the NR win? None of us know. which makes it so exciting.

    and starwars is considered a modern day myth. myths, alot of times, dont have a happy ending. and i highly doubt LFL would allow them to kill luke skywalker a horrible and agonizing death. what theyre doing by introducing new characters and slowly showing luke and companies age, they set the stage for the new generation of knights and other characters for the future which would leave the same sort of feeling of starwars to it. and maybe, just maybe, its a sort of master plan for the most anticipated of the three trilogies. the Sequel Trilogy

    so no i dont think LFL should pull the plug. it'd disappoint thousands of fans and leave a vast area of untouched material that the EU can cover which ultimately goes into LFL people's paycheck :)

    just my five cents
  4. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    After the NJO wraps, there should perhaps be a trilogy that shows the galaxy rebuilding and what not.

    The end the post-ROTJ EU, unless the Empie comes back in force and is once again a power to be reckoned with. :)

    The overemphasis on the uberkinden is showing that the EU is now truly working to establish itself as an independent entity as they shove the adults aside.

    I read SW for the Empire, Luke, Mara, Han and Leia. Not Jacen, Jaina and Anakin.
  5. ReaperFett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 1999
    star 6
    I read SW for SW. I got sick of Luke, Han and Leia constantly saving the day
  6. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Star Wars is about Star Wars characters. As soon as anyone says they read "Star Wars" because of "Star Wars characters" like Mara Jade, Corran Horn, Kyp Durron then any other new pro-fic character is just as viable.

    A minor note, Anakin is a more established character than Mara, Jacen or Jaina - having his roots in 1988's Dark Empire concepts. Jacen and Jaina are about as established a character as Mara Jade is - so they are equal in stature. If Mara & Corran are viable characters to tell stories about, then certainly Jacen and Jaina are and most definitely Anakin is.

    One may like or dislike these characters based on in-universe personalities, the way they've been written, etc. But, their claim to be written about is no less than that of any other "new" character.

    The problem is that there exists too many "viable" central characters because at some point, the decision was made to shift things away from Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, Lando, R2 and C3-P0. As soon as that decision was made, Star Wars became "Star Wars."

    Some like "Star Wars" and actually believe it to be Star Wars. Others have never accepted "Star Wars." That's the way it's been and that's the way it'll always be. Changing the nature of stories or characters or other "smoke-and-mirrors" tactics won't change that.
  7. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    I see the "problem" as being the fact that Luke, Han and Leia are still alive in the NJO.

    Torch-passing in SW happens through death, whether we're tallking about Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda or even Vader. The problem with the NJO is the fact that the planning committee wants to pass the torch, but they have to keep the previous generation alive, or else they could lose a rather large portion of their readership.
  8. Rotan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2001
    star 1
    Personally, I would prefer Continuity over Confusion. Abd I fail to see why the Expended Universe should end, because of Literature disagreements. Literature, albeit a major part, is not the equivilance of EU.
  9. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Exactly, GAW.

    It's unreasonable to think that Luke & Co. stay alive indefinitely. During this transition period which includes all characters involved in the passing of the torch, of course there will be somewhat of a dilution for both groups. "Spotlight" sharing and/or hogging at certain points by certain characters in anticipated.

    There's a lot of characters involved right now at this point in time - much more so than prior to the torch passing as well as after the torch has been passed.
  10. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    Of course they wouldn't stay alive indefinitely. In terms of natural aging, Han and Lando would be the first to go. While Luke, Leia, Jacen, Anakin and Jaina could easily live several centuries, since Yoda lived to be 800.

    Any Force-sensitive individual would have a longer life span than a non-Force sensitive of the same species, since Yoda attributed his long life to the Force.

    The problem has arised from portraying Luke as an over-the-hill has-been when he's the most powerful Force-user currently alive. He used to care about the entire galaxy and all its inhabitants during the Galactic Civil War, but now he is only concerned about making sure those with the Skywalker or Solo surnames are safe and everyone else can go to hell.
  11. phantasm66 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 2
    I really think that the 900 years that Yoda was - was more attributed to his race then being force sensitive.. but I dont know.

    No, the EU is on the right track. I am thoroughly enjoying the series and the new faces are taking up the bulk of the fight while the familiar faces (while they are still fighting and doing amazing things) are taking more of a leadership role

  12. Jades Fire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 1998
    star 4
    In answer to the topic question.

    Yes.
  13. Galleon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 2001
    star 2
    Personally I am getting tired of NJO and by default tired of Star Wars. To me the NJO series while it has its enjoyable parts is becoming painful to read. I liked Star Wars not just for the characters ( which are becoming far less interesting, and enjoyable) , but for the interesting plot lines and themes. I liked the idea of releasing a plaque and then taking hold of the major producer of the cure, or of an elaborate coup to inspire a dying empire. An then we have the Yong, an alien race from another Galaxy who have come to take over. Hum. Where have I heard that before, could it be the most widely used Sciences Fiction Story of all time. The way I see it NJO is becoming less and less original in spite of valiant efforts by great writers. After NJO I think that they will have one last chance to prove themselves in a trilogy or so about the rebuilding of the Galaxy. If the fans reject this like so many are doing to NJO then I believe most, if not all post NJO books will be cut. However, if the trilogy makes people believe in the Star Wars Galaxy again then it is possible that Star Wars has a future. I have heard Aaron Allston's name tossed around as the author of this trilogy. While I would enjoy this, I would expect it to be written by Zahn, or Anderson, because they were both key in building the EU, and have so far remained uninvolved with the NJO.
  14. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Galleon...
    "I would expect it to be written by Zahn, or Anderson, because they were both key in building the EU, and have so far remained uninvolved with the NJO."

    Well, actually Zahn was one of the NJO planners. Particularly, he was key to the whole concept of what you called a tired and overused sci-fi plot - the mysterious invaders. However, no one should let him anywhere near another Star Wars novel. He ruined the expanded universe for large numbers of Star Wars fans, forever souring them on any expanded universe stories and he lacks a fundamental grasp of Star Wars continuity. His novels inspired feelings of expanded universe hatred that extends even to this day, a decade later.

    KJA wouldn't be bad. However, better yet is to open it up to some new authors.
  15. ReaperFett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 1999
    star 6
    I find it ironic that people say NJO is too unlike SW, but then praise Zahn, who did the same
  16. Aragorn327 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2001
    star 6
    maybe it'll end with all the main characters getting killed off, then they'll HAVE to go back and write earlier.
  17. Jades Fire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 1998
    star 4
    Reaper

    What I find ironic are statements like this:

    Genghis12: Date Posted: 7:08am Subject: RE: Wahey!!! I have got REBIRTH...and it's so dissapointing... - Date Edited: 7:22am (1 edits total) Edited By: Genghis12

    What I really don't understand is the unrestrained, outright hostility, attacking and flaming of people who do like the NJO as well as crusades to tarnish the good name of accomplished authors, editors and publishers through the repitition of lies, misinformation and misdirection.


    FOLLOWED by statements like this:

    Genghis12 Date Posted: 1:27pm Subject: RE: Is it time for EU to call it quits?

    Well, actually Zahn was one of the NJO planners. Particularly, he was key to the whole concept of what you called a tired and overused sci-fi plot - the mysterious invaders. However, no one should let him anywhere near another Star Wars novel. He ruined the expanded universe for large numbers of Star Wars fans, forever souring them on any expanded universe stories and he lacks a fundamental grasp of Star Wars continuity. His novels inspired feelings of expanded universe hatred that extends even to this day, a decade later.

  18. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    Genghis,

    Would you mind posting proof that Zahn was involved in the planning sessions? This is news to me. I know MAS was involved, Shelley Shapiro, Jim Luceno, LFL reps (Lucey Autrey Wilson and/or Sue Rostoni most likely), KT.
  19. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    Post proof or retract Ghengis. [face_devil]
  20. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    JF,

    I'm curious as to which parts you find ironic and why?
  21. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    And here's Genghis on his anti-Zahn tirade again.

    Again, I will pint out that when Zahn wrote his trilogy, it would have been very easy for him to referenced Marvel material--or for Lucy Autrey Wilson or Sue Rostoni to edit references in. Neither happened. Get over it already.

    The comics were out of print several years before HttE came out. This is mostl ikely the reason that LFL wouldn't have wanted them referenced. They weren't available for purchase any longer.

    I brought this up in a previous thread. What was to stop Sue Rostoni or Lucey autrey Wilson from inserting Marvel references into HttE, DFR or TLC? When Thrawn is introduced, there could have been a sentence or two to mention this Sk'arr guy you talk about and any smiliarities he and Thrawn may have shared. When Luke ws facing C'Baoth at the end of TLC, there could have been one or two sentences, the gist of which could be: "Luke watched C'Baoth and, through his mind's eye, he thought back to and visualized Darth Lumiya, who we had faced shortly after the Emperor's death. While C'Baoth may be insane, Luke still sensed the same feelings of hatred that he sensed when he fought Lumiya."

    Also, LFL had Dark Empire in some pre-production phase since 1988, therefore, they certainly were aware of the direction that the comic series was going to take. Did they inform Zahn about it? Zahn found out about Dark Empire only after HttE had gone to press.
  22. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    GAW...
    "Would you mind posting proof that Zahn was involved in the planning sessions?"

    I'll try and track it down. However, you're words - involved in planning session - are different.

    I have no idea if he was involved in any planning meetings. However, I saw somewhere where his SW plans were part of the NJO plan. Specifically, in the context of the mysterious invaders - one of the key aspects of the NJO. I'll try and hunt those down.
  23. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    GAW...
    "Did they inform Zahn about it? Zahn found out about Dark Empire only after HttE had gone to press."

    Incorrect. He knew about it and refused to work with it and states exactly as much in the SWAJ#1 interview.
  24. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    If I remember right series had been called off.

    When LFL and DH greenlighted a few years later,Veitch contacted Zahn and asked him what was going to happen to Mara.Zahn didn't say,so Veitch left her out of the comic entirely.
  25. Bogga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1998
    star 4
    Umm, why did Zahn have to know about Dark Empire? His books take place prior to Dark Empire so I don't see why he would need to know about it. I don't see why how this point is relevant.
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