Is it time for EU to call it quits?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Aug 30, 2001.

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  1. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    I didn't really read this whole thread, only the first post.

    Anyway, I like reading about Jacen, Jaina, and Anakin, and I'd like to read post NJO books about them, but I am sooo sick of the sadistic Yuuzhan Vong and their destruction of the galaxy.
  2. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    "Umm, why did Zahn have to know about Dark Empire? His books take place prior to Dark Empire so I don't see why he would need to know about it. I don't see why how this point is relevant."

    Originally veitch placed the story in a time frame before TTT. Since Zahn refused to acknowledge comics(AJ #1 he's rather derotatory towards them, "he wouldn't write the stories if he had to acknowledge comics"), veitch decided to move his story back after TTT. That way there was no chance of any conflict.
  3. ReaperFett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 1999
    star 6
    noone dare touch the Zahniverse :)
  4. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Bogga...

    From TOS:
    "One challenging factor was coordinating these stories with the ever-growing "expanded universe" of Star Wars fiction. As originally envisioned by Veitch and Kennedy, the series was to have taken place shortly after Return of the Jedi...Zahn's story and Dark Empire had to fit together, as all the "expanded universe" fiction fits in a cohesive galaxy, where one event affects the next."

    Fact: Zahn's self-acknowledged lack of continuity caused problems.
  5. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    All right, Zahn knew about your precious ocmics series, Genghis. However, it was not his choice to incorporate elements into his work. LFL could have handled discreetly slipping these elements into Zahn's novel.

    And why did Zahn have to say what was going to happen to Mara? Didn't Vietch think about contacting Ms. Wilson or Rostoni?

    And, for the record, I agree with ahn's views on SW comics. DE is a piece of ridiculous trash as far as I'm concerned. If only KJA hadn't mentioned its events in the JAT, I could have gone on without having ever heard about it.
  6. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    well, zhan asked for it, if he would have been internally consistant and acknowledged past continuity. Then veitch wouldn't have had to move his story past zahn's in time. Therefore the DE sourcebook wouldn't have written how palpatine was behind thrawn's death(making the robot malfunction on honoghr making the noghri distrust thrawn), and thrawn would have been a danger post Palpatine, someone who didn't have palpatine breathing over his back for being a failure and traitor to the order(for presuming himself above the emperor in the empire).

    well, what you expect from a man who the only reason he got a star wars writing gig was because his name was picked out of a hat of other possible authors(AJ1).
  7. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    GAW, looks like I'm not the only one revisiting a "tirade." :D
  8. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    Don't get me wrong TTT is one of my favorite Star wars book series.

    I'm just glad there was other people, who fixed the mistakes he made(or forgot to mention).
  9. Obi_Wans_love_child Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 4
    I think a lot of people have missed the point to The New Jedi Order. These books are not about introducing us to the Vong. Its about a new chapter in this Star Wars universe. Even once the Vong are defeated or perhaps sent back or what ever happens the New Jedi order will continue on. These stories are to bring in a new era. Now as corny as Kip's little speach about being part of the New Jedi Order was in Rebirth it is the truth is a new chapter to this immense saga George Lucas started. The prequals, the early stories such as the comic books, the stories after the first holy trilogy, these all are parts of a saga which has aspects still undiscovered. One can't continue on with one simple little section of people. The expanded universe which includes anything from 4000 years before to now and beyond has so many different directions it can go. The writing for the New Jedi Order has not been as good as others, but it still has had some very amazing moments. Balance point while not her best work made me happy that they allowed Kathy Tyers to write again. She had to follow up Timothy Zahn with her first novel which is like asking some cover band to follow up Elvis in my opinion. As i have reread her first novel i did notice her strong points and weaknesses which she improved upon in Balance Point. The two Gregory Keyes books were stories which were not meant to be great. They were meant to bring about more knowledge of Anakin and his internal side. There was no way to make it an amazing story. And with the birth of Ben the story would not have made sense to focus on just the fight and the birth since it truly did affect so many in the story. Showing how powerful the force truly is. During the beginning of the expaned universe there were poor stories also. Whether it was The Crystal Star or The Black Fleet Crisis there will always be weak areas and areas which make us wish the story would never end. So dont mistake the New Jedi Order for something so small its a rather large undertaking and in the end i think many will be pleased.
  10. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    Genghis,

    We have a nice tit-for-tat cycle. You bash Zahn, I bash Dark Empire as being the epitomy of a lack of imagination.

    LFL provided Zahn with WEG information. They could have very easily had Zahn incorporate elements to lay the foundation for DE. Either that, or they could have gotten a different author who would be more willing of following the wishes of the licenser.
  11. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    GAW...
    "We have a nice tit-for-tat cycle. You bash Zahn, I bash Dark Empire as being the epitomy of a lack of imagination."

    Just to clarify, Dark Empire can't be the epitomy of a lack of imagination, because TTT holds that position. ;)

    "LFL provided Zahn with WEG information..."

    They also provided him with DE information. He balked. They had contracts and if there's one thing which complicates a project more than anything - it is the owner having to throw the contractor in default and get someone else to finish. It usually leaves a sour taste all around for all parties involved. When it comes to Star Wars, ultimately it is the authors' name on the front. He/She is the first line of defense. The editors are not suppose to write the novel. Now, while it's a stretch to ask everyone to know about everything, it is not unreasonable to ask that authors know about the things they're writing about.
  12. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    speaking of lack of immigination and originallity, Zahn wanted to have a Clone of obi-wan(even when he knew that kind of story was already being used by DH.)

    He wanted to write about sith, making them an alien species(noghri). Talk about not being very consistent, with lucas's vision. but the editors made sure he didn't do that.

    Then in the interview he goes onto to say, "I'm impressed by the consistency of the universe, and how it all fits together", Ironic how he tried to break up that consistency by wanting to ignore past sources.

    Oh, and he should have noticed that WEG had been incorporating older material into there works(well maybe that came later in weg, I did notice the links to marvel in Truce at bakura sourcebook, but maybe at that time they didn't sprinkle links in the early books).

    "LFL provided Zahn with WEG information. They could have very easily had Zahn incorporate elements to lay the foundation for DE. Either that, or they could have gotten a different author who would be more willing of following the wishes of the licenser."

    Well, he at first didn't want to have anything to do with WEG material, until he read some of it, and found it to be good source of information. Bantam wasn't mean and cruel to the point of going out firing people who didn't fully agree, or breaking contracts. Just because they were nice enough to comprimise, doesn't make his knowingly intended choice to try to break up the consistency of the universe, correct(You can't go about saying how you like the consistency of something, and then knowingly go out and break that, it's hypocritical).

    It's good that the editors just worked around him, and gave veitch and others others ways around the omissions he created.
  13. DarthYosef Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2001
    star 1
    "I have heard Aaron Allston's name tossed around as the author of this trilogy. While I would enjoy this, I would expect it to be written by Zahn"

    Well, it's not going to happen. I got to meet Timothy Zahn at the San Diego ComicCon and asked him if he would be writing any new Star Wars, perhaps NJO, and he said that it would not be NJO, because he didn't like it. He said it was too dark for him. He said that if he wrote any new SW, it would be Prequel-era.
  14. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    The simple fact is the passing of the torch is not always a good thing because quite simply sometimes the "Good Fight" concievably ends.

    Sauron was eventually defeated as was Saruman and low and behold Middle Earth entered a many reign of Peace.

    There's still stories to be told but I don't think Tolkien should have ended it any other way. I'd be happy to read about Anakin and the rest but they should have their own series and not linking them to the "old fogies"

    By the way does anyone else get the feeling we're writing off the old Trilogy's characters FAR too early? Mara, Leia, Luke, and the rest are far from worn out.

    The average age in SW is 200 years which means concievably at 48-50 Mara could and likely is as spry as she was in her 20s and likely will be for another 50 years.

    Han Solo is entering his 60s but again that means he might just be in his 30s as things go in SW.

    Even if he lived to be a hundred that's not that old.

    Ironically bringing it back to Oz it might be worthwhile for the NJO to follow its formula of "expanding the expanding universe"

    Yes Luke is on Yavin IV, Yes Mara is married to him.

    But cease the books to be focusing on them if you wish to write about StarWars and write other Rogue series or similar characters which the SW people hold as peripherial.

    Basically what Oz did which is a 200 book series, Ozma and Dorothy show up only occasionally and usually as the calvary after some interesting new characters have done their dirty work

    basically I think again we risk destroying the valdity of th EU if we keep dragging the characters through the mud trying to shock us with new situations for them.

    G.I. Joe almost killed Duke in the movie but 16 years later fans who look back are glad he survived because he was a symbol that should be immortal.
  15. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Funny you mention G.I. Joe.

    The original Marvel G.I. Joe continuity is being revisited for a new Joe series to begin in September. All of the old favorites like Duke, Flint, Snake Eyes, etc. will be back. (Not like that dreadful G.I. Joe extreme which existed for a short time.)

    Looks like everyone from Lucasfilm to Image is dying to return stories which tie back to the classic days of Marvel. :D
  16. Dev Sibwarra Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 4
    From a very old Tf.n article, Zahn on 'The New Del Rey Series':

    I (Scott) was at the Sci Fi Expo this weekend and had a chance to talk with Timothy Zahn a little. (For those that haven't met Zahn, he's one of the most friendly and open authors I've ever met. Definitely go meet him if you have a chance.) I asked him if he had seen the info published in the latest Insider on the new Del Rey series. He said, "No. What's public knowledge now?" Knowing what he could talk about, I told him that I was concerned that they were going to steer the series away from the storyline he set up. I was concerned that they were going to ignore Luke and Mara's relationship and the plot points involving the Unknown Regions. Much to my joy, he assured me that they will NOT be brushing off Luke and Mara. In fact, for quite a long time, Lucasfilm has intended on the relationship between Luke and Mara to happen, thus Luke's abysmal track record with all the other women in the Star Wars Universe (including kissing his sister. :) ). And as far as the invasion from the "outside" goes, it has to go through the Unknown Regions in order to take place. So we really will get to see that part of the galaxy included in the novels. This was great news to me and reassures me that Del Rey might know what they are doing. :)

    Zahn mentioned that Thrawn's species will not be involved in the new books, but that he and Stackpole would like to pitch a storyline involving them to Dark Horse as a comic series. If this is of interest to you, I suggest you write Dark Horse and let them know this is something you'd like them to print. It might help Zahn and Stackpole out some if there is fan demand.


    That predates VP by six months, which would suggest that Zahn had at least some contact with Del Rey.

    Star Wars is not going to die very easily. People said that it was dead in the late seventies, the eighties, the nineties, and this decade, whatever we're calling it. :)
  17. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    G.I. Joe coming back? :) Too bad there will be a new actor behind Cobra Commander's voice, since Chris Latta died in 1994. I am so happy to have picked up the sries on ebay. When cartoons were good, before the dark times of Japanimation. And G.I. Joe Extreme was absolutely dreadful. Just don't tell me that DIC is behind the new series.

    I despised G.I. Joe the Movie. All the biotech crap was too bizarre for my conventional military tastes--I'm much more for Firebats, Stuns, HISS Tanks, Rattlers and what not, and what happened to poor Cobra Commander was just very, very sad.

    That article strikes me as indicating that Zahn didn't have a clue as to what was going on--that he wasn't in the loop. The Vong didn't launch their invasion through the UR.
  18. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    Regarding, Lucas' vision, I'll just point out that may very well change every day of the week. For instance: They'll be 12 movies--no scratch that. They'll be 9 movies--no scratch that. Six movies, and that's my final answer."

    I see having cloned Obi-Wan as having been a very interesting idea to give Luke a real dilemma. However, bringing Fett and Palpatine back from the dead is the height of unoriginality. Vietch's main antagonists were resurrected: one from the bowels of the sarlaac and the other was brought back after having his body tossed down a rector shaft. At least Zahn was not recycling villians from the movies to throw at the hereos again and again and again (as in the case of Palpatine.) Yes, he did bring "Thrawn" back, but that was Flim--it isn't like Zahn had a massive cloning facility for Thrawn out in the UR. Thrawn had one clone, a perfectly logical fail-safe option. I wouldn't have minded DE so much if Palpy had only come back once, but he returned to more times courtesy of Clones R Us. And the stuff about Luke turning to the darkside is utter nonsense. He's going to turn his back on his family, people who have been there for him through thick and thin--uh-huh, okay.
  19. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    <<When cartoons were good, before the dark times of Japanimation. And G.I. Joe Extreme was absolutely dreadful. Just don't tell me that DIC is behind the new series. >>

    Uh, this is kind off-topic, but Japanimation revitalised American cartoons in the early 80's. But that's a long story. But if you mean Pokecrap, then yeah, I see your point.

    <,I despised G.I. Joe the Movie. All the biotech crap was too bizarre for my conventional military tastes--I'm much more for Firebats, Stuns, HISS Tanks, Rattlers and what not, and what happened to poor Cobra Commander was just very, very sad. >>

    I loved it. As well as Transformers The Movie.

    "You've got the touch..."
  20. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    Also...Wettengel,

    Veitch originally wanted to bring back someone wearing Vader's armor, and LFL said "No".
  21. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    Well then, that buttresse my case that Vietch is utterly devoid of any original ideas when it came to the villains DE.

    Japanimation in the 80's. I had forgotten about Robotech and Voltron. I enjoyed htose quite a bit. Transformers was excellent as well, and I also enjoyed the movie very much; I found it to maintain Transformer continuity well, unlike G.I. Joe the Movie.
  22. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    well, the difference was Veitch came up with the idea to bring back charactes first, all the way back in 1988.

    Zahn was copy-catting the idea and tried to make it look like he was original. As for the clone of obi-wan as a villain story.

    it was done already by marvel, with an actor playing the part of obi-wan(ahh wait didn't zahn copy that idea, by having an actor return playing the part of a dead guy(thrawn)?)

    Well, let's not mention mara to ghengis, ;).

    Zahn is hardly original.
  23. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    So Vietch came up with the idea first. Does that somehow make it better?

    But did this actor playing Obi-Wan have the backing of a faction of the Empire?
  24. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    "So Vietch came up with the idea first. Does that somehow make it better?"

    Yep, I have the audio dramas and veitch's idea added so much more to the history of palpatine. His character is enhanced quite a bit.

    Not to mention the Backhistory branching off into TOTJ series, also a very intriguing and excellent audio drama and comic series.

    "But did this actor playing Obi-Wan have the backing of a faction of the Empire?"

    Yep, infact he was backed by Vader, and the empire, to try to lure luke into there clutches.
  25. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    Now that I established Zahn is unoriginal, I have to say I still found quite a bit of enjoyment in his books, they are still some of my top favorites.

    But I enjoy Dark Empire Audio Drama's equally(the comics falling just a little under the audios).

    I also enjoyed alot of the other Authors, not one is a God. But a few fall short of my enjoyment level(cough Jeter, hambly cough). Even still I found enjoyment out of most of the books I read(even there's).
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