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Is Kyp Durron's approach morally right?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by BOOSTERERRANT, Dec 30, 2000.

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  1. jedimaster203

    jedimaster203 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 1999
    Kyp is an idiot. Don't buy into "Attack in self-defense" bs He wants to attack in agression, i can see right through him. Super-weapons are a no-no
     
  2. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2000
    Kyp is correct. For everything there is a time and in this RARE case being offensive is the best defense. There will be no galaxy left if the Jedi wait for the Vong to come to them...

    Kyp is the Yang to Luke's Yin. He provides the balance point to Luke. The Jedi need him, especially at a time like this.

     
  3. BOOSTERERRANT

    BOOSTERERRANT Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Dec 16, 2000
    Jarik, the fact of the matter is that there are ways to attack the Yuuzhan Vong that doesn't involve extravegant flight shows and Jedi heroicly swooping down and killing the enemy. The way Kyp goes about attacking the Vong is wrong. I agree that the Jedi should go on the offense, because in doing so they would act in the Defense of millions. But, making a hero out of yourself by using huge extravegant shows and displayes is prideful. Pride can lead to the darkside, and Kyp again is dangerously close to it again. Seperating the Jedi willfully is moronic at this point. The Jedi must work together as a unit, as one body. Not two or three or even four. They must work together. Also, Kyp is too too agressive in his strikes. He goes out of his way to be agressive. His squad is called the Avengers right? Vengence is of the darkside.
     
  4. LaraNotsil

    LaraNotsil Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Dec 18, 2000
    yes BOOSTERERRANT, but what people are missing, is that the jedi are right now spreading themselves thin, with like 1 jedi stationed on only some of the worlds, and they need to amass, and take all the jedi, go to a planet that is being invaded and drive off the vong.
     
  5. Waning Drill

    Waning Drill Jedi Knight star 5

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    Dec 30, 1999
    "Jarik, the fact of the matter is that there are ways to attack the Yuuzhan Vong that doesn't involve extravegant flight shows and Jedi heroicly swooping down and killing the enemy."

    Please explain to me how this is possible.
     
  6. Mastadge

    Mastadge Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 1999
    I haven't read all of these threads, so I don't know if this has been said, but

    To answer a question with a question, does it matter? The Vong sure aren't acting "morally right." Face it, this is war, some ass needs to be kicked, there are casualties of war. After Carida Kyp was sufficiently chastened that I think he'd know never to do anything too drastic like that again, but I think that in certain situations, like war, the ends often do justify the means.
     
  7. Jarik

    Jarik Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 21, 2000
    ""Jarik, the fact of the matter is that there are ways to attack the Yuuzhan Vong that doesn't involve extravegant flight shows and Jedi heroicly swooping down and killing the enemy.""

    What're you talking about. How do yo want them to fight. Get everbody in 1 line and take a shot with your blaster every 5 seconds so it's not extravagent.

    "The Vong are killing civilians and Kyp wants to attack their military presence. Attacking an armed military force to save an unarmed civilian force under attack by said military force is a moral and justifiable cause."

    That is exactly what I am saying. Thank-you.

    "I think that Jarik isn't getting that the jedi do have morals and kyp is allready half way to the dark side"

    How do you figure this. Wedge wants to attack the Vong. Gavin wants to attack the Vong. That Bothan Admiral wants to. They want to do this to protect people. Kyp wants to attack the Vong to protect people. However, he can't because he is a Jedi and this will make him fall to the darkside. It's just not registering.

    They need to attack the Vong or they will lose 1 system by 1 system and eventually they'll lose everything.

    "Kyp is wrong, let him die..."

    Why? Is he wrong because he disagrees with Luke Skywalker? Now Luke is great and he's done many great things, but he attacked the Death Star didn't he. Imagine if he hadn't done that becase it was morally wrong. And there were technicians on that station, who had nothing to do with the evils of the emperor. The Vong don't have any civilians (At least in the GFFA). They are all fighting against the NR and killing it piece by piece.
     
  8. Lord_Gita

    Lord_Gita Former TFN FanFilms Staff star 4 VIP

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    Oct 5, 2000
    Jarik, I think you are 100% right in that attacking the Vong is morally acceptable. I think Luke is mistaken in acting as he has, and that his lack of action could allow the Vong to establish a permanent foothold and the loss of millions more lives. That can not be permitted.

    However, I see a problem with the way that Kyp is behaving. He is not merely attacking the Vong. He is enjoying it, his ego feeds on it. That is dangerous.
     
  9. ArnaKyle

    ArnaKyle Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Well said Lord_Gita. He's not just justified to kill for his own personal glory or overblown ego. That's the problem I've had with Kyp. No matter what good he MIGHT be doing, is he really doing it for the good of the ENTIRE Jedi Order and the ENTIRE New Republic? Maybe, Maybe not.
     
  10. BOOSTERERRANT

    BOOSTERERRANT Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Dec 16, 2000
    Attacking the Vong is not the issue. The way he goes about doing it is. If your in a fight, say that you didn't start it and you claim yourself to be a moral man, is it morally right after you win to make a show of your opponent? Kyp does this all, some for the galaxies good yes, but some for his own PERSONAL glory. That is NOT the way of the Jedi. Also, he draws more attention to himself by being a direct cause of seperation between te Jedi. Kyp could very well be potentially one of the greatest Jedi ever, but until he realizes that war is not a show, but something tha HAS to be done, he will never be a TRUE jedi.
     
  11. Jarik

    Jarik Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 21, 2000
    Ok, even if you guys are right about Kyp then the Jedi still need to be more aggressive. They just need somebody without an overblown ego, and a tendency to showcase an opponent after a win.

    However, when did he make a show of his opponent? I can't remember this.

    "Also, he draws more attention to himself by being a direct cause of seperation between te Jedi."

    He's not doing that for attention. He's doing it because he think that the Jedi have to be more aggressive.

    Kyp's goal is to make up for his mistakes and protect the people now. He is upset that the Jedi cannot be more aggressive and believe that they have to. He can be proud with his abilities and still serve the light.

    "He is not merely attacking the Vong. He is enjoying it, his ego feeds on it. That is dangerous."

    How can you say this. Where has he even fought the Vong yet other than that little trek with the Avengers where if I remember correctly he was not very prideful and showing off his opponent.
     
  12. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Ok, a Jedi can attack. Yoda himself wanted Luke to kill Vader, right? But... he told him all those peace things so he wouldn't go on a killing spree. Jedi should fight. They have always fought grave threats, or when negotiations fail. Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, all the Sith, Darth Maul... Even Yoda killed a Dark Jedi on Dagobah.
    Now, I think Kyp's approach is wrong. He's acting like a kid again. He shouldn't do that. Of course, Luke should wake up. Or maybe one of the Solo kids will lead in the end. The series may elapse 50 years, or two. I mean its called "The New Jedi Order". I don't think its called that so the New Jedi will all die. But they would be glorious heros, within their contraints as Jedi.
     
  13. Lord_Gita

    Lord_Gita Former TFN FanFilms Staff star 4 VIP

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    Oct 5, 2000
    Jarik, at the station (Dubrillion was it?) Kyp was braggin about his racing time. And using that and the fact that they would be seeing combat to try and convince Jaina to join his squadron.
     
  14. jastermereel

    jastermereel Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 1998
    Am i mistaken or does Obiwan make the first move in ANH in the duel with vader?...would that not count as attack?

    The primary problem here seems to be different peoples definition of defence...some seem to see defence as any action taken to protect while others see it in the more limited terms of no offencive action in the name of defence...

    Personaly...I feel that while Kyp is a little to zealous he has the right idea...you can't just let them come to you...you must push them back...
     
  15. Jarik

    Jarik Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 21, 2000
    "And using that and the fact that they would be seeing combat to try and convince Jaina to join his squadron."

    So what? He tried to make his squadron better by luring a very goos pilot into it so that it would more effective in chasing down criminals.
     
  16. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 2, 2000
    Kyp has the right idea. Attacking the enemy is a fact of life. Kyp does seem to beat himself at his own game occasionally however. By grandstanding with fancy flying set to music, Kyp feeds the idea that he is a showboat with no redeeming qualities. Kyp needs to back it off a bit but so does Luke.

    No one wants another incident like what happened with Sal Solo at Centerpoint.
    Luke needs to realize that. Kyp may be skating close to the dark side, but if Luke would get off his moral high horse and help Kyp maybe then Kyp and Luke could find some happy medium.

    Also, when Luke stalked into the Vong camp with two lightsabres a'swingin' was that not an attack? Attacking is not always of the dark side.
     
  17. Chewbacca of Kashyyyk

    Chewbacca of Kashyyyk Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Nov 17, 1999
    Kyp is an interesting character that Chewbacca of Kashyyyk hopes will be developed more in the upcoming books.

    Very often, in order for change to occur, there has to be an opposing view. For years, Luke's position has been mildly challanged at best. Kyp came along and had a totally different view of how the force is to be applied. His way may not be the way of the future....but it will certianly challange the existing views and there will be change in the future. It won't be Kyp's way and it will not be Luke's, it will be something different and hopefully a step forward in the growth of the jedi.
     
  18. Leia

    Leia Jedi Grand Master star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 1998
    Tricky issue...
    Well, I'm starting to forget, in my very old age of 15 (*rolls eyes*), exactly what Kyp's approach is. Obviously, he is pretty aggressive, but I'm forgetting all the particualr points.

    However... I think that Kyp's approach is morally wrong not because the aggression is misplaced or untimely, but because I think he is too zealous. There must be limits to this aggression, of course. I don't agree with Luke's side entirely either, because too many people are dying, and, the way this war is going, will be dying. Just as "justice is sometimes served best by knowing when to fold one's hands," it is also sometimes best to take up arms.

     
  19. Quiwan

    Quiwan Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    Kyp is absolutely right. The Jedi should be going after the Vong to ensure that the people of the New Republic are safe. That's not aggression. The Vong attacked first and there is no harm in a proactive defense.
    In war the ends do justify the means. Anyone who say different proves their ignorance.
     
  20. Master-Omaj-Kadub

    Master-Omaj-Kadub Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Dec 22, 2000
    I caught on to this late, but lets look at this. The Jedi are like monks in a sense with a fighting spirit. Highly trained individuals with the ability to persuade actions.
    What is disturbing about Kyp is that his AGGRESSION may take over & lead him to the DARK SIDE.
    I believe that the Jedi's actions are playing out to slow, but they must beware of that balance between the DARK & LIGHT SIDE of the FORCE...
    Kyp is to aggressive but has the right idea.
     
  21. Jarik

    Jarik Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 21, 2000
    "What is disturbing about Kyp is that his AGGRESSION may take over & lead him to the DARK SIDE"

    We've been through this. We got down to aggression doesn't lead to the darkside, but rather the intent with which you are aggressive determines whether you are on a darthpath or not. The discussion kinda deadlocked when we had differing opinions on Kyp's intent.
     
  22. Ao_Rui-shui

    Ao_Rui-shui Jedi Youngling

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    Jan 5, 2001
    I think that Luke is right, but Kyp is not wrong. They just have different views of the whole issue. Really people! Is it just me or does *everything* lead to the dark side. Oh, no! fear leads to the dark side! Who cares? You can't sit there and let yourself get killed because you're worrying if it's 'of the dark side.' Light side, dark side. Doesn't really matter if you get killed in the end. Survival trumps them all. That doesn't mean that I would do anything to survive, but it does mean that what is moral to me isn't necessarially moral for everyone else.
     
  23. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 2, 2000
    I know what you mean about "everything" leading to the dark side. I remember thinking "What a wimp," when Corran killed that one dude in Ruin and then he was all, "Oh no, I touched the Dark Side, I touched the Dark Side. The galaxy is doomed. I must exile myself."
     
  24. Ysanne

    Ysanne Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 1999
    Kyp's approach is a typical example for acting without using a single brain cell. Does he REALLY think that the YV would have come so far if they were not superior to what he in his arrogance expects them to be? They surely have a lot of tricks he'll never dream of up their sleeve, and this means the Jedi need careful planning if they should have a chance of success.
    Kow Kyp doesn't plan for a second. His stance is not "we have to defend others" and derives attacking the YV as the consequence. It's just the other way round. He says "let's fight and kill the Vong" and then starts looking for a reason. This is quite dark-side-like, and combined with Kyp's lack of planning, potentially suicidal for the Jedi.
    Compare this to what the Rebels did before: Their point was not to shoot every Imp in sight, but when it was absolutely necessary (and then they still often used the stun setting). This was war, too! Kyp does the opposite. Shoots first, explains later.

    As to Kyp's huge ego being an important factor, look at what the Avengers were for: Hunting smugglers. No-one told him to do so. No-one even gave him permission. He just did it to show off as a hero and to eradicate people who acted in a way he, Kyp the expert in morals and ethics, considered "wrong". No thought that smugglers are not automatically people deserving to be killed.
    Add to this the way (music, show etc.) he presented himself. Add to this with what he wanted to recruit Jaina: The prospect of killing people who hadn't done anything to her. Assuming that this would appeal to her means one thing: That this appeals to him.

    Ysanne
     
  25. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 2, 2000
    Good point, Ysanne, but I still disagree. The difference in the Vong and the Imps is the reason different tactis are needed. The Imps that were stunned could be captured, debriefed and possibly even turned to the Rebellion's point of view.

    Teh Vong, on the other hand, can't be stunned to begin with, can't be debriefed( at least not yet) and we've already seen that defectors are not to be trusted(Elan).

    AS I already stated, Kyp is a bit too showy and needs to dial it down a notch but still I believe that attack is the way to go here. And killing a few Vong is fine with me.
     
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