Is Kyp Durron's approach morally right?

Yes, attack is ok. I even think that Centerpoint would have been the right thing to use. And where are the stronger ships (say, the Lusankya - I'm biased, so what?) of the NR? Actually, I don't think there are great limitations to what the NR could use against the Vong, as long as it doesn't harm others. And as much as we see of the Vong when captured, there even needn't be too great efforts to turn them. But:
What is important is the MOTIVE. The problem with Kyp is that he doesn't want to attack because there is no other way to protect civvies. He wants to attack to show off, because he likes fighting, and because he hates the Vong. That civvies are saved by this is a side effect. Now of course he tries to make people believe that this side effect is the important thing to him. But his actions betray his true motivation.
This motives, combined with the continued disregard for "think before you act", result in a catastrophe. I hope he won't get too many others killed when that comes.

Ysanne

 

Hmmm, food for thought. Let's see . . .
But here's where I'm going to attack Luke's attitude. If as you say, Kyp is dangerous because of his motives, then don't you thinkLuke knows this. But if Luke does know, then why isn't he doing anything about it.

It would have been better for Anakin to fire Centerpoint rather than letting SalSolo do it. Anakin is partially at fault. In the same way, if Luke would step up to the plate and show how to attack with the right motive then Kyp woulldn't have to attack.

If Kyp does indeed cause a catastrophe, Luke will, IMO, be partly to blame for not showing that attack can be a pure and selfless action.

 

Here's the heart of the question: Why does Kyp want to be so aggressive?

I think he wants to pay the Vong back for his squadron, Wurth, and the other Jedi the Vong have killed. In other words, he wants revenge.

I do think he has too much pride. Ganner realized that after his battles with the Vong and distanced himself from Kyp.

And his squadron was the equivalent of a posse.

So over all, I think he is on the edge of the Dark Side and his approach wrong.

 

First of all, I think Farmboy is a little bit stupid and that explains a lot of things about him.
Luke should really find a better reason not to attack than "that's not a Jedi's way". He has enough good reasons, starting with "we don't know where their important ships are" and "we don't know a weakness we could exploit". But he should make it clear that the Jedi are seriously looking for a way to do something against the YV. Unfortunately, Luke seems to miss the importance of explaining others why planning is so important (aren't there enough examples?), and resorts to that silly Jedi's-way-light-side-harmony-blah-blah of his, that will cost his position the last bit of credibility.
Such a shame. Why can't they just call in Wedge to organize the Jedi?!

Ysanne

 

I agree, Ysanne. Luke is getting too mature. He didn't have much of a problem killing stormtroopers or his father in RotJ. Now all of a sudden it's not the way of the Jedi. If the Jedi are warriors, then they should fight offensively as well as defensively. If they're philosophers, then they can sit there and worry about the morality of it all. Like Rogue and a half said, you can't be a warrior and feel horrible about killing someone. That's more of a conflict of interest there.

 

Ah, Ysanne. You've got it now. Wedge leading the Jedi. Great plan.

Seriously, it's not that bad of an idea. Luke may have the force, but in Truce at Bakura, he decided against being General because he wasn't the tactical genius that others were. Sadly, Luke has neglected teaching Kyp and others the ways of the force but they also need a milatary man, like Wedge, who can organize and execute milatary strikes.

Teh more we debate, the more I am leaning toward Kyp AND Luke edging into the dark Side. Aggresion may be bad, but apathy is to the nth degree worse.

 

Hey, now what did you expect? The Great One is the solution to every problem, isn't he?

As to apathy, well, Luke may be bad, but then what is Jacen? People like him are the reason that Kyp is seen as the only sensible Jedi around.

 

Is there is a problem Wedge can't solve, I've not seen it.

Good point about Jacen. That wimp just made me want to shake him. Of course, Kyp looks sensible next to him.

Let's choose: a Jedi who fights and saves lives with a bad motive or a Jedi who wimps out and hides with a good heart(maybe).
Is it anywonder they chose Kyp.

EDIT: I'm signing out for couple days but just wanted to say, "Good debate everyone. My opinions have subtly changed thanks in large part to Ysanne's well reasoned arguments. See Y'all around."

 

Here is something to think about as well.

In BP, we learn that Jacen was trying to figure out what the force actually was. How it focused through him his intentions. He ended up taking on the responsibility needed and showing the greatness that he has in him at the end.

In Dark Tide, Ganner started out with Kyps philosophy, but learned that it leads to an overestimation of ones worth, against the enemies abilities.

In AOC, we learn a bit more about Jaina and Anakin's philosophies, and how they have changed.

But the whole truth that has come down is this. As long as your actions are pure in body and mind, then you are doing hte will of the force. When you are doing the actions with no real thought to anyone else but yourself, you start to go down the path of the Darkside. That is what happened to Corran in Dark Tide. His final battle ended up being just use of the force through revenge, rage and anger. Thus using dark side emotions. Luke in his actions used a pure mindset, with no real ulterior motives. Kyp's mindset is revenge for all those that he has lost through his own actions, which he sees as being the fault of someone else.

Take for instance with the first squadron. He led that squadron into an area, and lost them. Their was nothing he could do to portect them. And when that happened, he was able to save only himself. Now he feels that he has to avenge them. Especially since they were supposedly the "best" in the NR. Another indication is his constant attack on the smugglers, the reason he was out at Lando's in the first place. Because his family had been killed by smugglers, all smugglers now must pay for their crimes. Even if they have helped in the past. All point to overconfidence in his abilities, and an underestimation of the abilities of others in comparison.

 

Is Kyps propensity to not think out his actions when going after the Vong morally wrong? Yes, because he is reacting out of vengeance and hatred.

 

Wrong. Kyp is actually thinking AHEAD. If the Vong continue to romp through the galaxy without the Jedi making a stand, then there won't be much of a galaxy left for them to "defend."

How would the world be today if the US had waited for the Nazi's to stage a land invasion of its shores? Europe would be totally decimated, the Jews would all be dead (along with gays, probably most if not all Africans, anyone of gypsy decent, and/or anyone who spoke out against the atrocities). Anyone with half a brain would say that the US was sorely needed and that they acted in DEFENSE of others in spite of the fact that they ATTACKED.

Now we find the New Republic in a similar situation with several systems under Vong control. The Vong are clearly an evil enemy bent on total galactic control. They have NO redeeming qualities and are ruthless killers of innocents. Did I mention that they are evil? The Vong only stand to get stronger as they take system after system. If the Jedi wait for the Vong any longer, then they are actually acting for the cause of the DARK SIDE, because lives will be lost due to inaction. And inaction of course is actually an action (which in this case would be for the Dark Side).

Kyp's intentions are for the good of the galaxy. If I were living in the GFFA, I would certainly want Kyp to take the battle to the Vong. I would not want my family and I to be killed while waiting for the Jedi to finally decide it is ok to act and SAVE LIVES.

 

The Nazi Parallel:

The US didn't act alone, it provided the main force but several other countries were involved, plus there was a staging ground for the assault. At the same time the Nazis were in retreat from two other fronts. At present the NR has no allies, no forward bases to hit the Vong, no way to get to the Vong because the hyperspace routes are mined. The invasion of Europe was possible due to substantial prior victories in conjunction with allies elsewhere.

In WWII the allies were busy for four years holding back the Nazi offensive against Britain, then Russia and Africa. It was due to victories in Russia and Africa the invasion of Europe was planned, but it was a huge operation. In essence the allies allowed Europe and a good chunk of Asia to be occupied by brutal authoritarian regimes because they couldn't do anything about it, they were too busy defending, losing and retreating.

Which brings us to Kyp. He's a loose cannon going around attacking without a plan. By rights the NR military should be fighting a sustained holding action with the Jedi working along side. Luke should be leading that in fact but NJO has assassinated his character otherwise Kyp never would have grabbed the spotlight. Regardless of that Kyp's motives are questionable and claiming justification by reference to a dark future is too easy.

The harsh truth is people get sacrificed in war, lives are thrown away for a greater end. It isn't pretty, nor is it good but it is necessary. Kyp does not see that, he like the rest of the fools in the SW universe thinks one can fight a moral war and be untainted by the death and killing. Luke is perhaps the only SW character aware of this fallacy. (I Jedi) He also knows his killing of the death star was necessary, it was not a wholly good act but neither was it evil. He then has to live with that knowledge.

As to what the people want in war, it isn't a reckless loose cannon but sustained attacks: The vong take a world, the NR does a few lightning nanotech bombardments to cause mass Vong suicide. The Vong take another world, the NR launches further bombardments. The Vong poison a planet, the NR start slaving suicide ships and asteroids to cause planetary quakes on Vong held worlds. The Jedi's role in this? How about co-ordinating cloaked asteroids in the way C'Boath did? Send a load of cloaked bombs into hyperspace, they activate as they are pulled from hyperspace by the dovin basals at which point multiple waves of force overload and destroy them, hence mine clearing. Use of force storms even to clear the way for attacks or to destroy Vong shipyards, but everything should be done to a predetermined end. In that sense the Jedi's acts at Duro are a good example of what they should be doing in terms of method.

Thus far all we've seen of Kyp is a prideful atack at Helska, a failed defence at Ithor and a selfish attack on a Vong vessel to save a fellow Jedi, so much for aiding the people of the NR. In fact his stationing his squadron near Bothawui is probably his best act yet.

To the central Q: No, Kyp's approach is flawed but the NJO has miscast Luke badly, hopefully this will be corrected in the wake of BP and Luke will be back to kicking arse like he did in TAB, TTT, DE, IJ, HOT.

Best wishes,

Jedi Ben

 

what's this about agression not leading to the Dark Side? I specifically remember Yoda saying, "anger, fear, AGRESSION. the Dark Side are they"

 

"How would the world be today if the US had waited for the Nazi's to stage a land invasion of its shores? "

We would all be speaking German.

Now, if the Jedi don't act soon, everyone in the GFFA left will be into S&M or dead.

 

I don't condone what Kyp is doing, but I kinda have to say that the Jedi need to be doing a bit more against the Vong.

 

The general consensus: The Jedi need to act.

The unanswered questions: To do what and how?

The Jedi in the Nr are in nowhere near the position of the allies in WWII in 1944, the analogy is fatally flawed.

The simple fact is that the NR is holding back, hamstrung by political narrow mindedness and selfishness. The Jedi should be assisting the NR military, we saw how C'Boath and the Jensauri enhanced the effectiveness of SDs, why shouldn't the Jedi do the same?

Jedi Ben

 

First of all:
As already pointed out, the WW II analogy is totally inappropriate. Not that it were too fitting for anything in the SW universe (see the WW2-SW comparison threads), but that's not the point here.

The point is that while the Jedi should do something, and we've all agreed to that, what is left of the original question: If Kyp's approach is morally right.
Could the people who think it is please explain to me why it is morally right for a Jedi to indulge in revenge, hate and the like? As this is what drives Kyp, and saving civilists' lives is just the "added bonus" (which he claims to be the main goal, when asked. Is lying also a path to the DS?).

Oh, and thanks, Rogue-1-and-a-half.

Ysanne

 

Well, we can't really say for sure what Kyp's motivation is. We don't write him. He does have nearly as much experience with the Dark Side as Luke does, from the Jedi Academy series. His opinion should be given consideration which the other Jedi like Corran seem loathe to do...

I don't agree with his opinion but it seems a far better option than Luke's side has chosen and their refusal to listen to him is no better than his refusal to listen to them.

 

I don't believe that any approach to war can be morally right. In a universal sense, the killing of any being (sentient or otherwise) is morally wrong, and can never truly be morally justified. And for a jedi, even when 'acting in defence', it is still giving in to a means of resolution which is evil.

But to stand by and let nothing happen is just as profoundly morally incorrect. To not prevent evil is to compound the impact it has on the victims, and can potentially lead to further evil in the future.

it is up to the individual in question to decided which path they feel is the LEAST morally corrupt.

Therefore, for kyp, his path is correct and justified. As is Luke's. As is Jacen's.

Wow. I loved that.

 

And while I'm here, why don't you all take a look at this topic of mine. Its not a whinge or NJO bashing thread, its a discussion in which I have voiced both sides of the equation and ask for your honest opinions.

http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=1799294

 

CoK has an interesting point about Kyp - I would compare Kyp to John Clark from Tom Clancy's novels.

Clark has had a "time" with the Dark Side (Without Remorse), but he has also served - and he attacks the bad guys to protectthe innocent.

And as Dizzy Dean once said, "If you can do it, it isn't bragging."

One other thing to keep in mind: It might not hurt for them to take on the Vong and really whip their butts - so other folks (the Ssi-ruuvi, the Dushkan League/Yvethians, and other bad guys) get the message: THIS IS WHY YOU DON'T WANT TO MESS WITH US.

As for the warrior angle:
Not every warrior enjoys killing. They can do it if they have to, but they hope their craft does not need to b applied "for real."

Kyp could be taking the Avengers and others out there, but it is to ave as many people as he can. And Kyp's got a good handle on the situation. He just needs a little more guidance. Think of him as a NJO version of George Patton.

 

Kyp's approach is absolutely correct.

Luke & Co. are still in a "Civil War" mind-set. They have to realize that they aren't fighting the Empire--they're fighting a nenemy with an totally foreign belief system, one that is the antithesis of the belief systems of the NR and the Empire, especially since both of them prize life, whereas the Vong prize death.

Not only do they prize death, but they also prize pain. This is something that would pretty much repulse Luke, Kyp, Pellaeon, Borsk, Leia, Han, etc, etc, etc. equally.

Vong morals and those held by the Empire, NR, Hapans and anyone else you can think of are just not compatitable.

The Vong must be totally destroyed. Any trace of them in the universe must be irradicated. The Vong cannot possibly fit into Luke's moral compass, so don't even bother trying to fit them. Just get rid of them.

 

Kyp is THE most arrogant idiots I've ever read of in the entire history of SW, seconding only to Han Solo

 

"The Vong must be totally destroyed. Any trace of them in the universe must be irradicated. The Vong cannot possibly fit into Luke's moral compass, so don't even bother trying to fit them. Just get rid of them."

I just want to say that I agree with this. For the New Republic and its allies to survive, the Yuuzhan Vong must be annihilated.

 

"In a universal sense, the killing of any being (sentient or otherwise) is morally wrong, and can never truly be morally justified."

That is a general statement that is totally impossible in realistic application. Its application would lead to the death of every being in the universe. Is that morally just?