Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jarik, Aug 7, 2001.
they need to start planning an attack an do it.( a long term modifiable plan that can ajust to the vongs tactics)
Kyp has made several attacks on the Vong and defended planets from the Vong. Is he right. This is a big controveresy now and I've been posting in most of the threads involving it very regularly and I want to see what the majority of people feel on this issue.
"they need to start planning an attack an do it.( a long term modifiable plan that can ajust to the vongs tactics)"
I agree. It's just tough to do that when only 1 person seems to want to attack the enemy.
he's spot on the mark.
And aso, if he did, more chance of us seeing a Kyps Dozen book
Attack or die
While I voted that "yes, he was right to attack," I believe you have completely misrepresented what Kyp has been doing. Kyp has not attacked anyone, he has only defended the galaxy against unwanted aggression like any Jedi should. That is, what he has done is not attack the Vong. The Vong have attacked, and Kyp has yet to stop defending.
It is like if an individual owned a large home, was married and had his close relatives living with him. One day, an evil, sado-masochistic, mad scientist of a serial killer breaks in through the back entrance and poisons your wife with a biological weapon which attacks her as well as your unborn child. Now, furthermore, he brings in his friends who immediately begin destroying your rear deck. You go and fight them and get severely beaten. You retreat to the living room. They move into other parts of your house and begin not only savaging rooms, but also nearly cut your sister's legs off. You convince them to make a deal - a duel to the death for the sake of your bedroom. You win, but they go and destroy it anyway. But, even more unbelieveable, they begin moving THEIR family into your house, and begin building their own house from the wreckage of your previous rooms. Wondering what to do, you call up Sheriff Mara Jade, who promptly tells you that you're stupid and greedy for building your home in the path of raving invaders and that you'll get no help in fighting them off.
And people have a problem with you attempting to boot the lot of them out!?! Defending your family!?! Defending your home!?! This amazes me, really.
[OVER-THE-TOP RANT SNIPPED]
Genghis, calm down. I agree with you. He has attacked the Vong, but he has attacked them in defense, in defense of the entir galaxy. Still it must be called attack because of the definition of the 2 words and attack is what I believe is what is needed to be done in order to defend.
Attack = Traveling to Vong held worlds and initiateing a battle
defense = staying at your worlds and only fighting when they show up.
"Still it must be called attack because of the definition of the 2 words and attack is what I believe is what is needed to be done in order to defend."
It must not be because of the definition of defense. A defense simply is the act of protecting against an attack. The Vong have attacked, Kyp has defended. Kyp's defense of the galaxy ends when the Vong's attack on the galaxy ends. After that, it's up to the Galactic Board of Ethics and/or the Inter-Galactic Court to decide what happens next.
He needs to tone it down
wow, there must be more fellow kyp fans than I thought. Come out of the closet my brothers!
Proud member of Kyp's dozen
hmmm I'll have to add that to my sig.
He'll attack the Vong and get a lot of them killed in the process. They will fail to take them out. It is important to attack the Vong, but not his way. Whoever leads the attack, will use both Luke's and Kyp's methods to face off against them. It's the only way to defeat them.
"wow, there must be more fellow kyp fans than I thought."
Actually, I think Kyp is pretty much a goober and is a wasted opportunity as a character. While he's been getting progressively more likeable as a character who interests me in the NJO, he still has a long way to go before I'll consider myself a "kyp fan." However, that has nothing to do with whether he's right or wrong to act the way he does. I think he's getting an unfair amount of flack because of such actions.
Big time Kyp fan here. Disliked what ahppened to him in the Dark Tide Duology, but Luceno got him on track
"It must not be because of the definition of defense. A defense simply is the act of protecting against an attack. The Vong have attacked, Kyp has defended. Kyp's defense of the galaxy ends when the Vong's attack on the galaxy ends. After that, it's up to the Galactic Board of Ethics and/or the Inter-Galactic Court to decide what happens next."
Ok, fine. I give up. Of course I agreed with you before and I still do.
The way he's been handled is one of the reasons I like him. People think they know how his mind works or who he is and most of the time they're wrong. He's been hated for a long time basically for carida. While vader, who didn't turn til his master turned on him, is adored by most everyone. This whole worldship thing wouldn't be a problem as long as his name wasn't attached. That's what really ticks me off. Anyways, even if he was wrong in something, the automatic assumption of his guilt is just plain wrong. I wouldn't like his chances in a war crimes tribunal though. In desparate war times, petty politcians who havn't seen conflict have no business deciding anything.
Anyways, kyp is stereotyped, slandered, insulted to his face, and misunderstood; and he still tries to protect people from the vong.
just another incoherent rambling
I put he needs to tone it down just a bit-although I did appreciate that you included an option that was from my Line blurred? thread, Jarik, thanks.
As much as I don't waht to use this analogy...The Jedi (IMO) are like Superman, heroes that can and will fight the good fight, but not with the attitude Kyp uses. "The to blazes with morals people are dying, I've got to kill some Vong attitude."
I just can't believe the Jedi should be the equivalent of the Punisher. Fighting the bad guys the way they fight.
They should fight. They should prevent the killing. But in a manner that befits a Jedi trained to know the difference between right and wrong.
What I'm trying to say is what Kyp is doing should be the Jedi's last resort, but he's using it as his first or maybe his second resort.
I know i have just been placed as a target for a "rebuttal" (most likely from Jarik) so here we go the line blurred round 2. I'll even provide you with the first line "Well this is a war..."
Kyp Durron is one of the few characters in the New Jedi Order who sees the invasion for what it is---unprovoked naked aggression. For all people wax and wane poetic about comparing The Empire to the National-Socialist Reich, it is far more accurate to compare the Yuuzhan Vong to National-Socialism.
The Yuuzhan Vong believe themselves to be a master race, and believe they have some sort of divine right to the territory of others. They believe that their need for this land overrides the claims of the inhabitants. They believe everyone who is not a member of their master race of supermen to be inferior, and therefore only animals awaiting subjugation and extermination.
Even more telling, the Yuuzhan Vong have launched a war of purification---they seek to extirpate the inhabitants of what they consider to be land which is rightfully theirs. They launched a massive blitzkrieg on an unsuspecting enemy. They violated the terms of their peace, and turned on their allies. The Yuuzhan Vong are as a whole a threat to the safety and security of the galaxy.
The United Kingdom and France failed to recognise the danger of the National-Socialist state. They traded the land and lives of innocent people---over whom they had no sovereignty, no less---in order to buy time. Nevertheless, they practiced the rules of civilised warfare. Civilians were not targetted, despite the distinct lack of such restraint demonstrated by the Einzatskommandos and the Waffen-SS.
The Allied Powers failed to understand that they could not fight the Third Reich in the same way that they had fought the Second Reich. The nature of the threat was fundamentally different. In the same manner, the New Republic fails to understand that the Yuuzhan Vong are not The Empire, just as the Yevetha were not The Empire. They do not play by the same rules, and it is criminally stupid to expect them to do so.
The New Republic and the Jedi are both culpable for the destruction wreaked by the Yuuzhan Vong. Because of their faulty understanding of the situation, their high-minded and short-sighted morals are preventing them from executing their primary responsibility---to protect and to serve. Instead of defending the galaxy, the Jedi cower in fear, worrying that they might do the wrong thing. So they do nothing at all.
Jacen Solo and his ilk fail to understand that their very survival is at stake. Their actions will not be aggressive. By Jacen Solo?s foolhardy rationale, the Allies were wrong to invade Normandy, since the Wehrmacht was not actively invading the United Kingdom. In times of war, one can attack without being the aggressor. The United States launched attacks on the imperial Japanese forces, but the Japanese were the aggressors. The Battle of the Bulge was fought in German-held territory. The Allies attacked; nevertheless, the Third Reich was the aggressor.
Kyp Durron?s actions in Rebirth were against a target that the Yuuzhan Vong vitally needed in order to sustain their war effort. Should the Allies have permitted the Third Reich to build railroads throughout occupied Europe, since they weren?t strictly military? Such foolishness is laughable. In a sense, the destruction of the target in Rebirth did serve a military purpose, both that seen in the novel itself, and to prevent the Yuuzhan Vong from being able to further sustain their war effort. In the same manner, the Allies were justified in a military sense to destroy fuel production resources, even if that meant harming the civilian population.
The people of the New Republic need to learn that there is a difference between unprovoked aggression and taking the fight to the enemy. And they need to do so quickly, before it is too late. Their foolish notions have already cost the galaxy much; soon, the price will be too steep to pay, and the galaxy as a whole shall suffer.
"although I did appreciate that you included an option that was from my Line blurred? thread, Jarik, thanks."
No problem. i tried to include as many different options for people to choose from to get a varied opinion and I also left a fill in just in case.
"I know i have just been placed as a target for a "rebuttal" (most likely from Jarik) so here we go the line blurred round 2. I'll even provide you with the first line "Well this is a war..."
Nah, you already know what I'd say. So I won't say that it's time to use their last option since nothing else has worked nor will work. Fighting back and attacking, the last resort is what must be done, it must be resorted to.
Kyp never tried anything else. What needs to be done is some one is going to have to go out there and find some weaknesses to exploit. Kyp just seems to be running off and killing any Vong that moves. That isn?t very efficient.
Kyp is right, after a fashon. Some derect, agressive action is defenetly required, but to distroy the Vong. They're not "evil", as such. They're fighting for what they beleve is right. The NR can hardly blame them for that. Not that that gives the Vong the right to kill anyone and everyone that get's in their way,. but we can't just wipe them out out of hand.
What needs to happen, is the NR and it's allies need to find some way to eather drive them out of the Galaxy, or win their respect enuff that they are willing to give back the worlds they have taken and leave, as long as the Nr and friends agrees to never invade the Vong galaxy, even though they never would anyway. (and no, I don't need the odds agenst that happeneing quoted to me)
I just don't think that blowing up the Vong worldship with the "they killed our civilians, lets have their's suffocate in space" additude is incredibly non-Jedi and wrong. He needs to get his priorities right and be doing the smart thing so it doesn't conflict with being a Jedi. The way he is doing it now is playing with fire. As for Jacen, use him as bait to lure out Tsavong Lah then hit him with the Lusankya. If Jacen get caught in the crossfire, too bad.
I just don't think that blowing up the Vong worldship with the "they killed our civilians, lets have their's suffocate in space" additude is incredibly non-Jedi and wrong.
Then you agree with his choice of attitude?
He needs to get his priorities right and be doing the smart thing so it doesn't conflict with being a Jedi.
Then to sit inactive safely in one's temple whilst the people that one is supposed to protect are slaughtered and enslaved is the supremely moral course of action?
Master Durron, in fact, is one of the few Jedi who has his priorities straight, such as it is. He does not contemplate taking action, only to stop when perceiving that he might make the wrong choice. The Jedi exist to guard peace and justice, not to sit cross-legged in remote temples, having discussions over what the Force desires.
A Jedi has a responsibility to defend the defenseless, to protect the innocent, and to guard justice. General Skywalker and his loyal cowards fail to do this, and therefore fail to be good Jedi.
The way he is doing it now is playing with fire.
How so? By fulfilling his duties to the galaxy, and destroying the destroyers? Would you rather that he cower in fear aboard the Errant Venture, hiding behind his high-minded and short-sighted ideals? General Skywalker's current philosophy of action---or lack thereof---is criminal in its stupidity. Master Durron is far more Jedi than he or his family.
With whom do you think Master Arkanian or Master Siosk-Baas would agree? Do you think that Master Yoda or Master Windu ever perceived why the Jedi Order was destroyed? Because it was morally complacent. Because it was decadent. Because it had become a mockery of the ideals of the Jedi.
Master Durron was right. Master Skywalker was not properly trained. Nor was Kam Solusar. These were soldiers of the light-side, who now presume to be the philosophers and theologians, as well. And their foolish concepts of what it is to be Jedi are influenced by the morally spineless Jedi like Master Yoda.
A sin of ommission is as greivous as a sin of commission. Perhaps the O-so-clever General Skywalker neglects to comprehend that he is culpable for the destruction caused by his failure to act, just as he would be culpable for damage caused should he act. He is a spineless coward, not worthy of the title Jedi Master.
As for Jacen, use him as bait to lure out Tsavong Lah then hit him with the Lusankya. If Jacen get caught in the crossfire, too bad.
Agreed. The weak and stupid must be culled from this "new" Jedi Order, or it shall suffer the same fate as the craven Jedi Order destroyed by the Phantom Menace and the Son of the Suns.
First of all, this is an ego thing for Kyp. That was made pretty clear with the fanfare around his dozen. Aggression for ego gratification is not the Jedi Way.
Second, Kyp tried to compare taking out the worldship to taking out the Death Star, but obviously there is a big difference. The Death Star was a purely offensive weapon which had already destroyed a planet and was about to destroy our heroes. The Worldship was a purely civilian target. Does destroying civilian targets help the war effort? Of course, but you've certainly lost any moral high ground. Think Hiroshima.
Then, Kyp is using Dark Side stuff pretty regularly. Lying about the worldship to get Jaina and Rogue squadron on his side, messing with Jaina's mind to make her reveal the trace on him, these are not the actions of a Jedi, but one who must have things his way at any cost.
Up until the worldship, for which Kyp needed help and obtained it by deception, his actions have not made much difference in the war against the Vong. He was about as effective as a gnat against an elephant. There has to be a vision and a game plan. Luke is the big picture guy. Kyp is focused on his navel.
"they killed our civilians, lets have their's suffocate in space"
for the last time, no vong civilians(if they exist) were killed in the shipwomb!