Is Kyp right about the necessity of attacking the Vong and his carrying this out in several attacks

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jarik, Aug 7, 2001.

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Is Kyp right about the necessity of attacking the Vong and his carrying this out in several attacks

Poll closed Mar 22, 2012.
Yes, Kyp is right. They must attack the Vong. 35 vote(s) 55.6%
Yes, you must attack the Vong, but Kyp is still wrong. (reply and state how) 2 vote(s) 3.2%
Kyp is horribly wrong. Aggression is bad. 0 vote(s) 0.0%
He needs to tone it down a little bit. 20 vote(s) 31.7%
We should invite the Vong to a tea party and get to know them. they're misunderstood 2 vote(s) 3.2%
Let them have the galaxy, who cares? 1 vote(s) 1.6%
Military can attack Vong, but Jedi must have higher ideals and morals and stay out of the fight and 0 vote(s) 0.0%
None of the above and I'm leaving. 0 vote(s) 0.0%
None of the above and I'll fill it in in a post. 1 vote(s) 1.6%
Who's Kyp? What are the Vong? Where am I? UH-OH I drank too much last night. 2 vote(s) 3.2%
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  1. Knights2037 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2001
    Yes I believe that Kyp is right in going out and attacking the Vong with his Dozen. The Senate isn't doing anything to try and stop the Vong so somebody has to try.
  2. III_Vir_RPC Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 1
    First of all, this is an ego thing for Kyp. That was made pretty clear with the fanfare around his dozen. Aggression for ego gratification is not the Jedi Way.


    You think that Master Durron fights the Yuuzhan Vong solely to gratify his ego? If anyone's actions are motivated by egotism and egoism, it is certainly not Master Durron. Lieutenant Solo and Mr Solo seem to be quite happy to follow laissez faire attitudes---so long as it does not involve or inconvenience them, it is acceptable.

    Inaction for the purpose of self-gratification is not the Jedi way. A sin of ommission is as damaging as a sin of commission.

    Second, Kyp tried to compare taking out the worldship to taking out the Death Star, but obviously there is a big difference. The Death Star was a purely offensive weapon which had already destroyed a planet and was about to destroy our heroes.


    You've a simplistic idea of warfare, then. The worldship would directly perpetuate the conduction of the Yuuzhan Vong war effort, as well as enable the main shipwomb to divert its resources to the construction of more warship-analogues. It would have been criminally stupid to permit the construction of the worldship to be finished.

    It's quite strange. For some reason, no-one raised a moral fuss about the ruthless tactics used by Elscol Loro and her ilk... total warfare is only acceptable when used against evil Imperials, eh?

    The Yuuzhan Vong and the New Republic are at war. War is not a pretty business. It is not some damned Romantic quest for glory. A soldier's job is to kill the enemy and not be killed. Politicians have the luxury of principles and ideals, but a soldier or general must take pragmatic actions. War is not compatible with idealism.

    In the words of William Tecumseh Sherman, "Some of you boys have the idea that war is all glory. Well, boys, war is all Hell."

    The Worldship was a purely civilian target.


    Ah-ah-ah.

    You fall victim to an oversight.

    There were no "civilians" (assuming that there is such a thing in Yuuzhan Vong society) aboard the worldship when it was destroyed. Just as the personnel constructing the second Death Star were not civilians, nor were the Yuuzhan Vong aboard the worldcraft when it was destroyed. Let us not forget, this was the main shipwomb, where warship-analogues were being constructed.

    Which means, ladies and gentlemen, that the worldcraft was in a military installation, and thus, fair game.

    Does destroying civilian targets help the war effort? Of course, but you've certainly lost any moral high ground. Think Hiroshima.


    A noble gesture. Yes, the indiscriminate liquidation of purely civilian populations is reprehensible. But, as previously noted, the worldcraft was currently devoid of civilians---assuming they exist---as well as in a viable military target. Thus, its destruction is not analogous to the destruction of Hiroshima.

    Then, Kyp is using Dark Side stuff pretty regularly. Lying about the worldship to get Jaina and Rogue squadron on his side, messing with Jaina's mind to make her reveal the trace on him, these are not the actions of a Jedi, but one who must have things his way at any cost.


    Funny, no-one seems to raise a fuss about Qui-Gonn Jinn or Ben Kenobi using these selfsame tactics to achieve their ends. No-one seems to think Master Jinn or General Kenobi were acting of the dark side when they prevaricated and mentally defrauded people. Oh, that's right---it's morally acceptable when done by faces, and not by heels. What of General Skyalker, who erases inconvenient memories of government officials in the Black Fleet Crisis?

    Prevarication and deception are favoured arts among the Jedi. So is psychological manipulation of the sort that puts Hannibal Lector to shame. Here, you see, is a major flaw in the Jedi---they seem to believe that it is acceptable to do these things to mere mortals, but it becomes unforgiveable when done to another of t
  3. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    III_Vir...
    "Clearly, the Sith will simply have to take another stab at cleaning this hypocrisy and this evil---yay, evil---from the galaxy."

    And of course, the right woman for the job is lying in hiding right now. Waiting to reveal herself to the Jedi. Waiting to have her revenge.
    [image=http://www.rpghost.com/bhyper/cantina/lum96c.jpg]
  4. darth-skycrawler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2001
    star 2
    I think that Kypp is actually doing what a true jedi would do defending the galaxy. i think peope have a misconception on the jedi. The reason that yoda did not fight wa because he thought he would not suceed against the empire. I think what shows us that yoda realizes that you must fight is the fact that Luke is trained as a weapon to beat the emoire. Kenobi himself was a general and episode 2 seems to point more to the jedi being prepared to attack to defend people. Kypp is following the true jedi path and skywalker i hate to say is wrong.
  5. CajunJedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2001
    I agree with the comments made here by so many people. Kyp is just protecting the galaxy from an aggressor who thinks they have the right to destroy or enslave anyone in their way. I like the comparison made previously to fighting Nazi Germany. When is Luke going to wake up and realize he has to push the aggressor back or the galaxy will be permanently enslaved?
  6. I-poodoo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2001
    star 4
    How can you be so sure, suncrusher X, that no civilians died in the shipwomb. There were bound to be shamed-ones there.

    According to them the Jedi are their salvation unless ofcourse that Jedi happens to be Kyp Durron.
  7. MAD6121 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 18, 2000
    star 3
    Part of me says what Kyp is doing is right. Ya know ya gotta attack the Vong. Something must be done. But In Conquest Jania brought up an interesting point. I tink she said something along the lines of what good are you actually doing. Firing a few torps, harrying a few supply ships. So Kyp's got the right idea, but the Jedi need to get their act together. I hope what we say in Rebirth will lead to what needs to be done.
  8. III_Vir_RPC Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 1
    And, like any civilians aboard the Death Stars, or in any other viable military target, those civilians---assuming they exist---are unfortunate casualties of war. War is Hell, gentlemen. Civilians die.
  9. Zainal Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 1998
    star 1
    While I don't agree with Kyp's act of defiance against Luke. I see his actions have merit.

    BUt I have doubts on how it would affect the overall picture. 12, 000 Vong dead on 1 ship seems hardly a critical blow against a force of millions or perhaps even billions that are needed to wage war on an entire galaxy. Especially a ship that was already on its last legs.

    However if it makes the Vong think twice and pause to secure the rear then I beleive Kyp would have done something worthwhile. What is now needed is a follow up action to make the Vong pay more attention to their own needs than figthing the NR forces.

    But know Kyp has alienated some of his own Jedi. Jedi he will need if he intends to repeat it again.
  10. GrandAdmiralDave Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 1
    Kyp's heart is in the right place, although his methods are at best suspect. Kyp honestly believes he is doing the right thing, and most of the people on this thread do too.

    Part of Kyp's motivation is his ego. He loves being the center of attention. He loves to dress and act in the trapings of a knight errant and be fawned over by locals. He (and others like Wurth Skidder) wanted to recreate the romantic image of the Jedi from when the order was at its height during the Old Republic.

    Kyp has also become so obsessed with his war against the YV that he has come to believe that the ends justify the means at all costs, including deliberately lying to Jania, Wedge, Gavin et al. While this was quite a blow for the New Republic and the Jedi, it will hurt Kyp in the long run because his credibility with the military is shot. Plus, none of the Skywalker faction will trust him after what he did to Jania.

    Kyp's biggest mistake was splitting with Luke in such a visible feud. Not only did it hurt the order, but it split its already fragile public image. He was so caught up in his own self-righteousness that he neglected to think about how his actions would affect the Jedi.

    To come to Kyp's defense, Luke did wuss out when it came to dealing with the YV. Kyp saw the YV threat for what it was: an invasion by a malevolent force bent on complete subjugation. Does that mean that Kyp took the correct course? No, but nor does it mean that his path is towards the dark side.

    Was he right in destroying the worldship? Probably, even if there were civilians on board. Someone compared it to dropping the bomb on Hiroshima. Truman was right in doing that too. Campaigns of terror are very effective, although not "gentlemenly". Sometimes it makes the enemy more determined to fight back (ie-the Blitz on London), but other times it makes the civilian population want to end the war; if you doubt me, ask someone who survived the USAF and RAF firebombings in Dresden, Hamburg, Cologne, or Tokyo. Karl von Clauswitz wrote that wars are won by destroying the will of the enemy to fight, and that is what killing civilians, destroying factories and demolishing infrastructure does.

    Will it work against the YV? Maybe, maybe not. Where Kyp is right is in that the Jedi need to be the tip of the sword that strikes back at the YV. Where Luke is right is in that the Jedi must not strike back reflexively or out of anger and vengeance; it must be well-thought out, surgical, and devastatingly brutal.

    Luke needs Kyp to hit the YV hard and fast. Kyp needs Luke to stop him from going so far that their campaign to stop the YV becomes the Jedi's own war of genocide and erradication.

    (Side note: If there are any X-Men fans out there, this argument reminds me a lot of the discussions between the Professor and Cable back when X-Force was formed with Luke as Xavier and Kyp as Nathan).
  11. Major_Derek_Klivian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 2
    To I-poodoo: once again, as on many other threads, I will tell you that Vong civilians do not exist in the GFFA. I do not argue that the Shamed Ones are in this galaxy against their will. However, jsut as many armies in Earth history have used forced consripts to do their work and fight their battles, so the Vong use the Shamed Ones and also slaves to do their work and fight their battles. Yes, it is a shame to kill these conscripts, but in order to defeat the enemy you must defeat all of the enemy. None of the Vong nor any of the Vong's vassals have a right to be in the galaxy of the Jedi and other peoples. The worldship Kyp destroyed may have housed many of the Vong and their conscripts who were currently not invading the GFFA; however, the worldship they are building is simply as base from which they will further invade the galaxy to further their genocidal practices. Unless the Vong stop prosecuting their war, prepare reparations for the damage (collateral and criminal), and relinquish claim to all territory they have invaded, then Kyp has every right to attempt to both thrust the Vong and their servants from the territory they have stolen and also hurt the Vong's military infrastructure. He did both at the end of Rebirth, and I applaud him.
  12. Tellesto Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 1999
    star 5
    A few points I?d like to comment on before giving my thought on the subject matter,

    • Master Durron was right. Master Skywalker was not properly trained. Nor was Kam Solusar. These were soldiers of the light-side, who now presume to be the philosophers and theologians, as well. And their foolish concepts of what it is to be Jedi are influenced by the morally spineless Jedi like Master Yoda.


    According to the thought and basic definition of the training given to Luke Skywalker by Yoda, he was described as a weapon against the Empire.
    Because of that Luke didn?t go through the initial training given to an adolescent in preparation for becoming a Jedi Knight he received a broken down process that was meant to mold him into a strong warrior with a maudlin hold against Vader.
    He was meant for the ultimate abolition of the Empire and lived in a time in which he knew of no other way, only taking the illustrations given by Yoda and Ben Kenobi and learning that there were times to attack and times to not attack.
    One could suggest that this brought him to form a lack of judgement in being able to decide against fighting the Vong or acting on the ethics of the Jedi.
    However, one could also suggest that his calmer attitude is the work of Del Rey and their attempts to form a divided order of Jedi on the thought and ethics of war.
    Kyp, like any Jedi should know that the Force is for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

    • Then, Kyp is using Dark Side stuff pretty regularly. Lying about the worldship to get Jaina and Rogue squadron on his side, messing with Jaina's mind to make her reveal the trace on him, these are not the actions of a Jedi, but one who must have things his way at any cost.


    Kyp?s choice to attack a target that would have vital results on the war effort against the Vong is indeed a worthy goal and should be the demeanor and focus of the Jedi and Republic.
    However, because of the political entanglements brought up by the senators and political powers in the Republic Senate, full-scale war against the Vong is not yet a possibility that is openly available for those in the military.
    Instead they need to continue to protect and defend until the powers that be decide that it is time to stop dancing around public view and opinions and start an actual offense against the aliens they have chosen to be in collision with.
    Because of this Kyp is lying for his own personal agenda and has no problem with using mind tricks and deceit to gain things that he desires.
    He used it before to wipe the memory of the design and production of superweapons known by Qwi Xux, and he did it despite the wishes of others around him.
    He?s used objects and other people (which he seems to view as proletariat) to get his way before and he continues to do so through the personal manipulation of Jaina Solo, the military use of Wedge Antilies and brought down a cost of many pilot?s lives.
    I would agree that the pilots had chosen to give their lives towards a cause, yet it was a cause that they thought they knew, they believed that they were taking on a weapon of mass destruction that could end the war in the blink of an eye.
    They did not know that they would be risking their lives for the destruction of an empty ship and that they had been manipulated into doing so by a person who continues to use manipulation and trickery to attain a standard that he believes should be the standard of all.

    Past Jedi have used such methods before, but on smaller scales and against people who they knew to be cheating liars themselves.
    These were innocent Republic pilots who had believed that they were throwing in their lives and skill for a cause that was as great as the annihilation of the death star, a weapon that could end the lives of billions of people several times over.
    Once again, the choice of action is right, it is Kyp?s methods of execution that are wrong.

    • And, like any civilians aboard the Death Stars, or in any other v
  13. Major_Derek_Klivian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 2
    By not using my points against me in your thread, you either think what I'm saying is indisputable or I suppose I didn't say much of worth, hope it was the former....

    First I'll respond point by point against your point by point, then I'll see if there's anything left to say.

    "[Luke's] calmer attitude is the work of Del Rey and their attempts to form a divided order of Jedi on the thought and ethics of war"

    I think there is enough OT as well as EU evidence that Luke's growing pacifism/timidity can be justified as the result of numerous events in his life, tragic or not. From the time that he realized that he was essentially killing himself (from a certain point of view) in the cave in ESB, he has been somewhat reluctant to pick up the lightsaber. He had an opportunity to strike at the Emperor in RoTJ, but instead he tossed his lightsaber aside. From this point onward, esp. in the BFC, we have seen that Luke's growing awareness in Force combinbed with the growing body count on his hands has somewhat caused Luke to throttle back his use of the Force. In VotF, Luke began to act like Jacen is now- refusing to use the Force so much as a 'tool' and doing things somewhat more like a normal Force-less sentient must.

    "Instead they need to continue to protect and defend until the powers that be decide that it is time to stop dancing around public view and opinions and start an actual offense aggainst the aliens they have chosen to be in collision with."

    I must heartily disagree with two parts of this statement. My first disagreement doesn't have to do exactly with what you said, but the connotations that go along with it. Yes, the Jedi must protect and defend unti lthe powers decide to take action. I agree literally. But theunspoken words you are saying are that all the Jedi should do is ferry the refugess away from the Vong, indefinetely if the NR never does anything, until there is nowhere left to hide.
    In order to defend, the Jedi must push the Vong back. Every facet of the Vong society is geared toward war, and this society is currently invading the GFFA. Elegos attempted to come to a mutual understanding with the Vong- and they summarily executed him and desecrated his corpse in such an ironic fashion. Unless the Jedi stop the Vong invasion, they are not defending at all unless you call a rearguard action adequate defense.
    As for leaving the 'powers that be' in charge of the defense...There have been so many instances in our history where the lawful government has not taken action against a threat and therefore someone without the authority but also someone with the just cause and reason took up the fight. Jedi are not necessarily bound to the NR. They must do what they feel they must, according to Qui-Gonn. If they wait for the powers that be, then Borsk Fey'lya will sacrifice countless lives in the meanwhile. The Jedi need to take the responsibility that they have inhereited.

    "Kyp is lying for his own personal ageneda and has no problem with using mind tricks and deceit to gain things that he desires."

    Yes, Kyp is furthering his own agenda, but it is not his personal agenda. No, his agenda is to serve all the peoples of the galaxy who shelter behind the actions of people like Kyp, who need Kyp to take action against the Vong and keep them watching their backs so they aren't always looking forward to the next planet to plunder.
    And how do you know that he has no problem with mind tricks? Maybe he regrets everytime he does them, and maybe that means he makes a sacrfice every time he uses one.
    And did not Obi-Wan use mind tricks to further his own agenda against the Emperor and Vader as Kyp uses mind tricks against the Vong?

    "The pilots haed cchosen to give their lives towards a cause, yet it was a cause that they thought they knew, they believed that they were taking on a weapon of mass destruction..."

    Often soldiers have been lied to concerning what it is their mission pertains to. For instance, were the pilots of the Enola Gay told they were dropping the
  14. Tellesto Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 1999
    star 5
    Sorry for not responding sooner Major_Derek_Klivian, but I had been previously occupied and only could reach the PC until now.

    Now, I?ll respond to a few points that were brought up,

    • By not using my points against me in your thread, you either think what I'm saying is indisputable or I suppose I didn't say much of worth, hope it was the former....


    I had nothing to say to your points because you had already defined them with due course, and the other points that I brought up directed my attention at the moment.
    It wasn?t because of a bad course of discussion on the creator?s part, simply too many points to talk about; thus I generalized with my final summary.

    • I think there is enough OT as well as EU evidence that Luke's growing pacifism/timidity can be justified as the result of numerous events in his life, tragic or not. From the time that he realized that he was essentially killing himself (from a certain point of view) in the cave in ESB, he has been somewhat reluctant to pick up the lightsaber. He had an opportunity to strike at the Emperor in RoTJ, but instead he tossed his lightsaber aside. From this point onward, esp. in the BFC, we have seen that Luke's growing awareness in Force combinbed with the growing body count on his hands has somewhat caused Luke to throttle back his use of the Force. In VotF, Luke began to act like Jacen is now- refusing to use the Force so much as a 'tool' and doing things somewhat more like a normal Force-less sentient must.


    A truer statement I have not heard in this thread, and I strongly agree.
    However, one must assume that if Luke Skywalker, a Jedi Master with due training and experience were to take such a stance on a matter because of past correlation?s then perhaps Kyp himself could stand to learn a thing or two.
    At the least, it shows that he has a different stance on the matter then Kyp in terms of attacking people or sentient creatures.

    • But theunspoken words you are saying are that all the Jedi should do is ferry the refugess away from the Vong, indefinetely if the NR never does anything, until there is nowhere left to hide.


    Not my thoughts at all, instead I believe that the Jedi should fight and help protect those willing to accept their guidance, but I also believe that larger scale attacks and the fight against the Vong themselves cannot be accomplished by the Jedi alone.
    In other words, the Republic has a fleet; they should be using it.
    Luke Skywalker alone did not destroy the entire Empire, but instead accomplished it with the help of thousands of Rebel soldiers and ships.

    • Yes, Kyp is furthering his own agenda, but it is not his personal agenda. No, his agenda is to serve all the peoples of the galaxy who shelter behind the actions of people like Kyp, who need Kyp to take action against the Vong and keep them watching their backs so they aren't always looking forward to the next planet to plunder.
      And how do you know that he has no problem with mind tricks? Maybe he regrets everytime he does them, and maybe that means he makes a sacrfice every time he uses one.
      And did not Obi-Wan use mind tricks to further his own agenda against the Emperor and Vader as Kyp uses mind tricks against the Vong?


    All of that is information that we have yet to learn about, as the writers have not delved deeper into Kyp?s psyche then the examples given in the NJO books.
    Rather, I took past points in which he selfishly used others around him to end the lives of thousands of innocents simply because he had been hurt in a time of war.

    • Who is speaking of mass extermination? Kyp has not committed genocide against the Vong, nor does he support it.


    I was generally referring to a point brought up earlier in the discussion when one stated that war produces casualties and that the Jedi like any other need to realize that.
    However, the Jedi would be hypocrites if they were to needlessly kill and destroy for the eventual succ
  15. killfire Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2001
    star 4
    As a former leader of the GFFA once said:

    Wipe 'em out. All of them!

    Seriously: The Vong declared total war on the GFFA. So total war they are going to get. Life ain't always about morality, first of all it's surviving. And the Vong leave no alternatives: Kill them or get killed. Chose now.
  16. Major_Derek_Klivian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 2
    Good points, all. However, I must point out that whereas Luke had a willing fleet at his back during the Rebellion, a fleet in which he was a captain or general or whatever, Kyp is disregarded by the NR. Worse than this, the Jedi are being hunted high and low and this make it dangerous for Jedi to even be in parts of the NR. However, I will admit that as far the the NR military and government go, this is not true and the Jedi are at least tolerated. Yet when has Borsk Fey'lya or others been partial to the Jedi's concerns (Luke's or others), or when has Kyp ever been trusted by others since his actions w/ the suncrusher?

    Wedge is a prime example of how Kyp is still evil in the eyes of many in the New Republic, and it would take much time and effort convincing them to help him or help the embattled Jedi. Kyp needs to take action now; rather, you say that he needs to convince the already anti-Kyp and already somewaht anti-Jedi New Republic to help him. Borks refused to save innocent Jedi children on Yavin IV, a territory that the NR still laid claim to. There is no way he would send ships out to Sernpidal, which Borsk is willing to give to the Vong. You may be right, but I think Kyp needs to take actions in his own hands, as a Jedi and one who sees the necessity of war. Only by leading w/ example will he persuade the New Republic into action. Words have already failed Luke Skywalker.
  17. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    It pleasantly surprises me that not only the majority but more than half of us support Kyp.
  18. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    I disagree with Kyp?s methods. He needs to focus his aggression some were that it would be effective. Currently he has it focused towards the Vong. I don?t know about you guys but that sounds too much like genocide for me to stomach. Not all of the Vong want to take over the GFFA, and even the ones that do don?t want to kill everyone; they just want to kill the ones that wont except there way of life, and convert the ones that will. Sounds like the typical holy crusade to me. That doesn?t mean that all of them are bad. Some of them even want to help the Jedi, and that means that the Vong have a weakness that, if exploited, could end the war. So why doesn?t Kyp start looking into exploiting these weaknesses, instead of what he has been doing? Even he admitted that his previous methods weren?t being very effective.

    I think that if Kyp keeps on doing what he is doing he will eventually go to the dark side. Yes, yes, ?there is no dark side?. I would tend to agree that the ?dark side? is simply an analogy used to describe evil. However, the assumption that since there isn?t really a dark side, the pull to evil isn?t as strong as people think it is, is not very accurate either. Coming back from the dark side isn?t as easy as some people think.

    Jarik used an analogy in another thread that ?using the dark side of the force? could be similar to using an atomic bomb, both have great destructive power and both have bad repercussions after there use. The USA hasn?t become ?trigger happy? about using them since the end of WWII, and so the USA has effectively come back from the dark side. So going to the dark side and coming back isn?t as hard as the books, or the movies make it seem (He didn?t say it like that, but that is the way I understood it). Not that this analogy doesn?t make sense, it?s just not an accurate analogy of the situation. The people in the government with the power to launch these weapons can?t feel the power of the atomic bomb flowing through them. They can?t use an atomic bomb with nothing more than a thought. (I only used this analogy to farther emphasize my point)

    Kyp won?t go to the ?dark side? soon, but if he continues to use as much power as he as been, the way he has been, then he is only going to want more of this power. Eventually he is going to come to the realization that he wont be able to get the power he craves by using calm concentration to control the Force. He is going to realize that the most powerful way to control the Force is by harnessing his emotions. Then he will realize that the most powerful emotion for controlling the Force is hate. After that he will realize that he had been stupid for having ever renounced the Sith teachings. He will, once again, become a Sith and seek to bring order to the galaxy by using is power. He will seek to command this galaxy that he has brought justice to, so that it will never lose site of that justice again. He has already become addicted to the power of commanding his dozen.

    In short, I think that Kyp is going to have to tone it down a bit.
  19. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    Kyp debates still raging.
  20. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "Not all of the Vong want to take over the GFFA"

    And which ones don't? I believe you mean the Shamed Ones. Sure, but we can't not attack the Vong because their slaves don't want to kill us. Comeon, you know that that's what the Shamed Ones are.

    Very nicely thought out. It's been a long time since I typed that analogy. I can't even remember what thread it was in. I did not mean to say that it was necessarily easier to come back since there is no actual "darkside". I only meant that no supernatural force would be pulling at you to stop you from going back. That the choice was still completely yours in every situation. And yes when you get power you want more and may do as you say. We agree on all this. Only you go further and say that Kyp will give in to this crave, while I have not condemned him in saying that he will give in because I don't believe he will. I believe he will resist the crave for power and use the force unselfishly to protect people as he has been doing.
  21. JWK Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 18, 2000
    star 4
    The Vong are different from everything else. Kyp's right.

    Luke's view are for a perfect universe. The vong have deffinatly messed that up.
  22. MaceWinducannotdie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2001
    star 4
    Kyp needs to tone it down more than a little.

    He lied through his teeth to get support for the assault on the worldship. He decided that the ends justify the means, just as he did when he took the Sun Crusher for a spin. People risked and lost their lives because Kyp decided on the quick and easy path of telling them they'd be destroying a superweapon instead of telling them why he felt it was important to destroy a worldship and letting them make an informed decision. That is what I call a criminal action. And I might add that even if it can be a bit hyperactive, at least Jacen has a conscience.
  23. ShadowChaser Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 1
    Ok, I think Kyp is wrong in attacking. Not because I think pacifism is the way to go, but it is a known fact that defense is easier than offence. When Kyp goes blindly charging ahead, it is very hard for him to win. But someone in the defensive position has the advantage.

    This may have been stated before, I didn't have time to read all the posts.
  24. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    You can't win a war with just defense. It may be easier but you'll lose. They'll eventually break down your defense and you will not have been hurting them cause you haven't attacked and why would they ever surrendered if you never attacked them. They wouldn't have to.

    Once again let's play a game of risk. You never attack, only defend. I will attack. We'll see who wins. I will win because you will not even be attempting to win.

    I, 5'8, 130, could beat a professional wresler in a fight if he never attacked me, so there is something to say for attacking the enemy during a war.
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