Is Lucas' imagination his own downfall?

Before getting into my point, I just want to say, to me the Star Wars Saga as a whole, so far, is, well...Star Wars. Genius. Brilliant. Awe-inspiring. But I want to explore another side of things...Prequels vs. the OT, but not in the typical context. (No, it's not a Prequels vs. OT bashing thread -- I don't want to start another debate about that -- go to other threads if you want to start bashing the Prequels.)

I think you will agree with me that it?s it's fair to say that public opinion on the Prequels isn't as revered as much as the OT. Some fans think that TPM was a waste, and AOTC wasn't much better -- and they're hoping that Episode III is Star Wars' saving grace. Okay, that's your opinion, and I'm fine with that. It's a democracy after all, and people are allowed to think what they want. On the other side of the coin, fans hail the Prequels as a triumph. And I'm cool with that too. IMO, I didn't think that TPM was what I was expecting, but I loved AOTC, and was completely what I was hoping for, and I'm willing to put serious money that Episode III will be what every fan has dreamed of since the OT came out all those years ago! I?m also willing to bet that TPM will make a hell of a lot more sense when we see all six films as whole instead of individual set pieces.

To the topic at hand?

I remember reading Rebel Without A Crew by Robert Rodriguez (I can never spell that guys name correctly!). In it, he was always talking about the fact that because he never had any money when he was making El Mariachi (and to a certain degree, Desperado), it forced him to be creative in his filmmaking. His point was that because he didn?t have the funds to fix creative problems, he had to work around them, making him a better filmmaker in the process. He had to think on his feet, because he didn?t have major studio backing.

Lucas had this same problem when he was making the OT. Especially ANH, because it was the first film, and the executives at FOX thought it was going to do ?okay?, as opposed to the end result when it became the biggest film of all time ? of course no one could foresee this. Who could? I think his budget for the film was $20 million (or was it only $9 million? Can someone verify that for me?), but during the production, things were going wrong every day. The budget was beginning to swell, time was running out, and the effects shots weren?t working. The project was in serious trouble?apparently they spent $1 million on effects, and not one shot was usable (or so I have heard). I think we can say that the film was shot flippantly, and even has become an ethos that Lucas and co acknowledges this (which in this humble posters opinion, adds to the charm of the films).

Anyway, the effects at the time were, of course, the best thing since Happy Hour, but of course, and which Lucas and other filmmakers have said, were limiting. They couldn?t really convey specifically what they wanted. And to follow on from what Rodriguez was saying, again, they had to be creative in producing the shots they wanted; doing things in a certain way, so it could be done.

Forward twenty years...

Lucas has all the tricks of the trade at his disposal?He is no longer bound by what technology can do. Anything he dreams up, he can write down on a piece of paper and say, ?Yes, I want to do this!, and now it is not a problem. I remember in an interview, he said that he always intended to have Jar Jar Binks in the films (Oooooh! ), but had to wait until Jurassic Park came out before he could finally say that the technology has caught up to his imagination. Fair enough. I?ve always said that if you want to do something, you might as well do it right.

The only problem is that the stories themselves have been (well, I think it?s a little harsh to say it) somewhat lacklustre in comparison to the OT. Is it possible that the technology has ?overtaken? Lucas? imagination? After all, the technology isn?t the problem. Look at the films that have come out in the las

 

Yeah, you don?t want bashing ? nice one. If you start a thread of this nature what do you think is going to happen? Well, at least the first few posts should be OK?

So let me get this strait, you think it?s possible that a film making tool is the downfall of his imagination? You think the fact that he can imagine something and then make it appear on screen automatically is somehow hindering his creative abilities? I don?t know, it sounds like a contradiction to me. Like in the original Star Wars when effects were being invented, it?s like, do you think that movie would have sucked if the technology were better? It?s pretty obvious that if George Lucas could have made the Battle of Yavin grander and more realistic he would have.

I think part of the problem is CGI, but not the way most people see it. I think CGI is too widely available now. The effects from the OT were incomparable. Now days huge effects movies are a dime a dozen. It?s probably more to do with the story than the effects themselves. The story of the PT seems to be what most people go against ? and it?s the story that demands the effects that ILM is now capable of doing. I suppose you might even say that people don?t like them because Lucas has become more creative. You?d be right in saying that Jar Jar is pretty out there ? most people don?t like him. I think it takes a heck of a guy to come up with a character that can be hated by so many millions of fanboys. As for your comment on the story being lackluster? well I strongly disagree. I can see that the PT story is a lot more complex than the OT story. The same style of mythological journey and other such elements are the base for the PT story. Are you implying that the Prequels are just a video game? Hmm, I?m going to go dig up some GL quotes on the art of ?visual? filmmaking.

 

I agree with RAZ.

Also about the CGI, it reminds me of an interview with Peter Jackson on the T2 dvd documentary about ILM and their breakthrough with the T-1000. He said bascally the same thing that is above about Robert R. and that films before CG, depended on a good story and script and that you were limited in what you could do and want. He then said that now since we have the tools to make our imagination come to life it all goes back to how good you can tell the story so people won't be bored and think the movie sucks since all it has is CG up the butt and no story.

 

ok please in dulge me.

The original Star Wars was on a budget of 12 million. Lucas did a brilliant job at making ANH. It was cinematic genuis and no one can argue that.

now what people need to relize is that Lucas had to make these movies in the contex that this is not "new stuff". ANH, TESB, ROTJ was all new. There wern't any good sci-fi movies out their. If there were, they never had the shots and the wit and good story telling that others had.

Fast forward 10 years.

Lucas had to wait when you could make anything you could possible imagein. But there have been good Sci-Fi movies out there that followed SW. Stargate, Star Trek movies, others that i can't think off. Lucas has a great imagination. The SW universe is incredible. The fact is that it wasnt "new". It wasn't anything that people havn't seen before. So they had these ideas that SW was going to be some amazing new way of watching movies (when in fact it was) but others wanted a revolution. Lucas didn't ruin the movie and i wouldn't balme him if he didn't make 3. The movie is relative to when it was realesed.

TPM was a breakthrough for computer graphics. (just as ANH was so i find it funny when people say that NT wsa ruined by effects.) SW is what we call a effects celebratie film. You don't go it to see the actors (becuase they are relativly unheard of.) You go to see the effects.

I honestly think that the NT bashing is just a bandwagon. You have to look past the surface of the film and relize all that it is. Its a great story, good acting, dialoge isn't great but its better than CSI *shivvers thinking of grisams next witty line* Its the same reason people hat the lakers. just becuase they are the lakers. Lakers are a very good team but i just don't like them.

but

i digress

DKT

 

I agree with DKT. As a kid watching fantasy films such as SW, Willow, Never-Ending Story etc. you look upon things ie. creatures, space ships, people using the force to lift little lizards etc. with a sense of wonder, wondering and hoping that these things really do exist somewhere in the universe.

Now we're all grown up and have seen to many 'making ofs' documentaries so we know exactly how things are achieved eg. computer generated creatures, forced-perspective etc. and never again will we question whether something really happened - we know it was all CG. So it is a matter of our perspective, rather than GL not producing the goods.

However, I do feel CG has been way over used. When I see an episode of the muppets, or the creatures in Jabba's palace I know they're not living creatures, but they're still real creations. In my opinion, no one has yet managed to create the same personality you get from a puppet in a CG model. If only some of the money invested in CG had been invested in puppet technology, things could be so much better....

 

I think one of the main problems is that all the PT-haters went to the PT movies expecting Episodes VII and VIII. They wanted to see all the same actors, or their equivalent. They wanted 70's hair, 70's eyes, and 70's voices. They wanted X-Wings in a time where there were none. I'm sure most of them were itching to have a third Death Star. The fact is they didn't get these things; they got elements of a different age that they should have realized they were going to get. They may not realize they felt that way, but that's what I think happened.

I've heard the PT described as trying too hard to explain the political conflicts that started the Rebel vs. Imperial war. We-ellll, it is called Star "Wars" and all great wars started with very complex political conflicts featuring other countries/armies morphing into the countries/armies of the future. What did they expect?

As for the humor, I agree Jar Jar and Threepio were a little overboard, but SW has always had that dry sense of humor. Same with Indiana Jones! I also agree that the acting hasn't always been the greatest.

Now, I have a few beefs about the PT, but not many, them being:

-too much comic relief in Binks and Threepio
-Jake Lloyd
-trying to rationalize the Force with the midichlorines
-how the heck Lucas will work around characters not remembering the droids in the OT.
-the striking resemblance of TPM's climax to Independence Day's climax

I still enjoyed the movies, though!

I, for one, cannot wait for Episode III. When I see its first preview, the anxiety will worsen.

 

-the striking resemblance of TPM's climax to Independence Day's climax

Eh ? Like the resemblance between Independence Day's climax to ANH's climax?

 

That's not what I mean. I didn't just mean sending starfighters to destroy a big deathship. I meant how a fighter went inside the mothership, dropped a warhead, flew out with enemy fighters in pursuit, barely made it out the closing door, the other fighters crashed into it, the mothership exploded, and the invasion on the home planet stopped. That's much more similar.

 

Im not one to take a shot at anyone except in defense, but Independence Day? Thats not a movie I want to even think about when discussing Star Wars.

 

Hey, I'm just saying what jumped out at me.

 

I think its interesting that Anakin blasts the main reactor accidently. All he wanted to do was to get out of the control ship. Not to purposely blow it up, by detonating anything. It just so happened.

 

In TPM, Anakin is used by the Force to blow up the space station.

In ANH, Luke uses the Force to blow up the space station.

---

[b]Luke:[/b] You mean it controls your actions?

[b]Obi-Wan:[/b] Partially, but it also obeys your command.[hr][/blockquote]

 

^That's not really relevant, IMO...although it is true.


Just wanted to take issue with the thread title..when you're making billions of dollars doing something you love, I really don't see how it can be called a 'downfall'.

 

I'll say straight up that I think RotJ is the weakest of the SW movies--it has its moments, and a great start, but from the point where the second DS enters into the picture, things go down hill for me. I think the reason is that the DS2 and Endor were a fall-back that Lucas was forced to use because, regardless of advances in effects between ANH and RotJ, effects had not progressed enough for Lucas' imagination. Originally, Lucas pictured Luke's confrontation with the Emperor taking place on the Imperial planet, but he couldn't find a way to do it right. RotJ, for me, is a perfect illustration of a moviemaker being held back by the limitations of technology, and the movie suffering for it. Whatever means Lucas needs to use to get his vision onto the screen is are okay by me (barring illegality and immorality, of course )

 

it doesnt matter what special effects a movie has if the story sucks so does the movie. how many action movies with state of the art graphics fall flat? and why? because the story sucked. lucas started out with a fantastic story and continued it thru esb. he chickened out with rotj. someone close should have died, at least lando close. think of the njo. they were not afraid to do what needed to be done for the sake of the story. now he has a buttload of money and he is focusing more on special effects and forgetting that it is the story that matters.

 

I think it's the very people who accuse Lucas of not paying attention to the story who are focusing on the effects at the -exspense- of the story.

The prequels make the classic trilogy story better.

If you think Lucas is "chickening out" you have a huge suprise in store for you in Episode III.

 

i think he chickened out with rotj. it could have been so much more but he tried to go mainstream. when you try to please everybody nobody is happy. it is my dearest hope that he has the guts to be true to the story that should be. you know what i am talking about. as a filmmaker, does he go after the bucks or does he go after story???

 

He goes after the story. ROTJ was no exception.

 

ANH like many of the best movies of all time were made by the shoestrings and almost didn't get time several times.

Casablanca, Citizen Kane, Terminator, the list goes on and on. Turmoil seems to bring out the best in movies.

 

Then with all the turmoil surrounding the prequels, they should be the best ever!