CT Is Luke stronger than Vader?

Who was better? Who was stronger? That's just how people are. To this day, people debate such things. Jordan versus James, Ali versus Tyson, Nameth versus Farve and so on.

 

Ali all the way

 

Oh, I see. Brute force is very important in our society.

 

Pretty much.

 

I am pretty sure Darth Vader is much stronger than Luke. The first time they were fighting Vader was fighting with his pinky, eating pizza with the rest of his hand and yawning with his others hand. Okay I probably exaggerated that a bit but still...

 

I originally thought Luke was vastly inferior, even in RotJ. I mean, the guy has, at most, two months of Jedi training plus some 3-4 months of personal training in solitude (and that's pushing it, because the Falcon's backup hyperdrive can't be -that- slow).

There's no doubt that Vader is at least twice as powerful as Luke in ESB.

But, as some others have mentioned, I think Palpatine knew that Luke was growing superior and that's why this entire trap was sprung. Vader was a prisoner of his suit, physically strong but weaker in the Force than he was pre-suit. And he was growing older and older and probably harder to sustain. One of the main reasons the OT duels aren't flashy is because you have this dude in a mechanical suit. I don't think you're going to get a single stunt double who can duel like crazy in such a restricting suit, and it actually translates well to the canon when you think about it. When it comes to flashy lightsaber duels, I think Lucas - despite generally not hitting the right notes with his franchise for the last two decades - was sending us a message there. Vader is strong physically due to being in that suit, but his speed, agility, and force power have diminished significantly.

Thus, I think Luke is equal to Vader just by the fact that he's not a prisoner of some life-sustaining suit. Both are equally strong in the force in terms of raw potential; Luke has little training but taps into the Dark Side at the end of the duel, and Vader just can't keep up at that point.

However, Luke by the time of Fate of the Jedi is undoubtedly the most powerful Jedi ever.

 

Key factor in the strength was training and time.

Anakin, trained by multiple Jedis and Sith Lords from age 9 to 46. Almost 30 years under his belt.
Luke had regular training for what - a good month?

 

And with that context - you have to say Luke was stronger. Trying to kill him or not, Luke was as green as could be going against Vader both times. Anakin in AOTC was more knowledgeable and trained. Yet Luke - went head up with the two baddest Sith ever and walked away. Yeah he had help but he still did it. Rawer but more upside. Being relatively self-made counts for more.

 

You guys need to rewatch the movies..

Vader says to Luke, Paraphrasing: Come with me Luke, Help me Destroy the Emperor, The Emperor has for-seen you destroying Him.

Vader, was heavily limited by his suit. Light Sabres, force powers, etc. However, as seen in ESB he can deflect Blaster Bolts... You have to remember, Vader was all powerful in A New Hope, and before hand because he was the ONLY force user in the Galaxy. The Jedi went into hiding, and even with Vader's limitations he was still more powerful then the Jedi that may have survived... That and Vader used fear most of the time. How would you react if a man dressed all in black with armor was said to single handed taken out the entire Jedi Temple, you would run the hell away from him too..

Luke, only learned the Force in a New Hope, which I think take places in the matter of Weeks, from Luke meeting Obi-Wan, his training on the Falcon, and then using the Force to sink the torpedoes in the exhaust port.. was only a matter of weeks.. even Vader says, " The force is strong in this one"

Fast Forward to Empire, Luke can use telekinesis to grab his light sabre, he then trains with Yoda, and while Vader might have been toying him, towards the end of that duel, Vader then starts attacking Luke pretty heavily, and Luke still gets a strike on him. Remember, Vader was trying to put him into Carbon freeze. It wasn't until Vader lops off Luke's hand that Vader then shows mercy/compassion towards Luke, which then refers to Luke seeing the "good" in Vader. Even though, Vader's thought process was to turn him, and have him destroy the Emperor. Anyway: Luke hardly knows the force and stands toe-toe with Vader in Empire.

in ROTJ: Cut to the Duel with Vader. Luke when he attacks Vader after Vader says something about his twin sister, takes it to Vader.. he is on his heels until Luke cuts his hand off.

From a New Hope- ROTJ I think take place in the matter of 4-6 years? and Luke is able to withstand, the Emperor, and Fight with Vader not once but twice and defeat him the second time. I believe Luke is far greater then Vader.

Luke is supposed to be Anakins full potential realized.

Remember folks. Anakin vs Obi-Wan in the ROTS was pretty evenly matched. Only Obi-Wan's experience saved him (getting the high ground) I still believe at the end of ROTJ Luke would have been stronger than Vader.

Edit: Added 4-6 years.

Also: Remember, the Emperor, and Vader (with the New Blu-Ray movies BTW which I believe are the ones that are Canon) are totally freaked out by Luke, that he could take them both out, the whole reason why Vader has his own ship with crew, is trying to find Luke and kill/turn him. Why the crap would they do that if Luke wasn't a threat? wasn't stronger?

 

4, I think, if you go by novelizations of movies.

 

You know, I kinda always figured Vader was stronger but by ROTJ I think Luke was already on his way on becoming stronger.

 

I don't see what this has to do with the Blu-rays specifically, it has always been in the film.

 

The Blu-Rays changed that entire dialogue with Vader and the Emperor. Since I can't remember the dialogue change, I said that.. but yes you are right, its always been in the movies, but I think the new Blu-Ray release and that dialogue change highlighted that more.

 

I think you are confusing the 2004 dvd changes with the blu-ray release. The original ESB scene was altered to have Ian McDiarmid in it for the 2004 release, it didn't change for the blu-rays.


On the thread topic, I think Luke was surpassing Vader by ROTJ, hence the Emperor wanting him to replace Vader. Besides the fact that he defeats Vader (when tapping into his anger at least), there are moments in that whole duel that seem to indicate he has surpassed Vader. Some pics from my visual links thread on the saga forum...


In ESB Luke cockily states "You'll find I'm full of surprises", loses his saber and tumbles down these stairs...

Notice the same angle in the next film, a role reversal as Luke is overpowering Vader and kicking him down the stairs...




That ROTJ moment then leads here. Notice in these two shots the person in the "high-ground" position will defeat Vader in these two duels. Vader also ironically states "Obi-Wan has taught you well".





Finally, there are two contrasting saber locks in each of Luke/Vader's duels. I don't have the pics, but in ESB Luke is clearly struggling as Vader overpowers him. In ROTJ Luke smiles and seems to be enjoying being a match for Vader this time.

 

Oh right. I've watched the Blu-ray's more then the 2004 DVDs/forgotten the changes. That, and I've think they say the Blu-rays are the official canon blah blah..

To your other points: I think that is why Luke is stronger then Vader. He's only had few years of training.. and he is able to surpass Vader..

I guess the debate should shift to How limited was Vader in his suit?

 

Vader was conflicted and thus the Dark Side didn't lend him its full strength. The dark side is an unreliable ally, as seen in Maul's demise and Vader's defeat by Luke.

You are only a strong lightsaber duelist when you believe in the force and it grants you its power. That's why Luke lost on Bespin. Not because his physical training was insufficient, but because he didn't fully believe in himself and the force.

Luke: I don't, I don't believe it.
Yoda: That is why you fail.

 

I don't think Luke was stronger than Vader in ESB, but I do think Luke was stronger in RotJ. For the following reasons:

a) I personally don't care whether it matches up with the PT or not. Yes, I'm one of those people.

I don't see how people can match the RotJ Luke/Vader fight with the PT at all anyway. By the PT's standards of Jedi training, Luke shouldn't have stood a snowball's chance in hell against Vader no matter how “conflicted” Vader happened to be at the time. And Vader and the Emperor certainly wouldn't see Luke as any kind of “threat” as a Jedi (as a guy-who-destroys-Death-Stars, maybe).

b) Luke defeated Vader in RotJ.

Counterargument: Vader wasn't giving it his all because he was conflicted.

Counter-counterargument: Well, this kind of puts us at an impasse, because there's no way to prove just from the movies whether he was holding back or not. But then, the novelizations are canon wherever they don't outright contradict the movies, correct? I know the RotJ novelization has already been brought up in this thread, but in it, it's pretty obvious that Luke defeats Vader fair and square:

And this is even before Luke goes berserk on him.

You might argue that subconsciously Vader wasn't giving it his all, but if you bring the subconscious into it, then you might as well just disregard any inner thoughts that are shown in the novelizations, just because they might subconsciously be thinking something else.

c) Obi-Wan and Yoda seemed to believe that Luke could defeat not only Vader, but the Emperor as well.

Counterargument: Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't want Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor. They wanted him to redeem Vader and for Vader to defeat the Emperor.

Counter-counterargument: Maybe Lucas has retconned their plans for Luke since then, but there's no way you can convince me that that was Lucas thought at the time (unless, of course, you give me a quote of him saying so at the time). Both the things Obi-Wan and Yoda say in the movies and the rough drafts of RotJ make it pretty obvious that they meant for Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor.

Meaning, they obviously believed that Luke was capable of defeating Vader and the Emperor. So assuming they aren't complete idiots, they must have had some reason to believe this. But wait, you say, then why couldn't Luke defeat the Emperor in RotJ? Well, hell, if he'd have kept his lightsaber, maybe Luke could have killed the Emperor. So why'd he throw it away? Well, throwing it away was the only way he could be absolutely certain that he wouldn't give in to the dark side. Even though he knew the Emperor would kill him.

d) The Emperor wanted to replace Vader with Luke.

Counterargument: The Emperor merely thought that Luke had the potential to be more powerful than Vader, and that's why he wanted to replace Vader with Luke. He didn't think Luke was stronger than Vader now.

Counter-counterargument: If that were true, then he wouldn't want them to fight each other, because it would be obvious that Vader would win. He would only have them fight each other if he thought that they were at least close to the same level.


And keep in mind that this isn't about wanting Luke to be 'teh most powerfulest'—I'd be perfectly content if Luke only had the potential to be a powerful Jedi in the OT. It's about wanting the actions and words of the characters to make sense. The only alternative I can see to believing that Luke was more powerful than Vader in RotJ is to believe that Obi-Wan, Yoda, Vader, and the Emperor were all just really, really stupid.

 

I don't think Vader's force powers were weaker than Anakin's, I think it was just that his potential was far less than it once was.

 

Id just like to point out that at the end of episode six, when Luke get zapped with the force lightning he cant do anything but thrash around on the ground. When Vader is being zapped, he just continues throwing palpatine.

 

Vader was only 20 Percent down to Emperor, confirmed by lucas. So luke could be already 90% Emperors Power.....

 

True, but I think that was more like a momentary burst of son-saving strength, kind of like a mother lifting a car to save her child, rather than being indicative of which one was stronger.

 

How was Vader stronger, I know the OT was made before the PT, but I do not see many indications of him being better. I could see him being about the same as he used to be.





As for the whole is Luke stronger than Vader, I think they were about the same. Vader must have been having inner conflict, he was fighting his own son, who refused to turn to the dark side. Not the mention Luke calls him Anakin and continually says there is good In him. This statement of mine is also supported by Luke saying, "I sense the conflict with in you, let go of your hate." Perhaps all that conflict distracted him from the job at hand.

Also, Luke was for the most part, fully trained. He was a Jedi Knight after all, and he was focused on his job, converting Vader to the light side, but he got distracted by palpatine and his anger got the best of him.

 

Why are people so obsessed with brute strength in regard to any topic?

 

DRush76 - don't go telling other people what to discuss and what not to discuss. If you don't want to participate in a discussion that touches on 'brute strength', no one's forcing you to.