Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by TheDisharmony, Jun 15, 2013.
The final battle is a pretty clear showing of Luke's superiority to Vader.
Force choke is an ability that requires some concentration, and I'm guessing can be blocked by another Force user fairly easily, which explains why Vader couldn't use it to kill Luke or the Emperor.
Didn't Dooku force choke Obi-Wan for a moment before tossing him across the room?
Yes, it's one of the problems that comes with making the characters uber powerful. You start wondering why they don't use that power all the time.
I think it can be explained in that Vader's internal conflict weakened his allegiance to the Dark Side which significantly reduced his force power.
Added to the fact, that he wasn't going out and Luke only barely won when he had a sudden surge of anger and thus power. I think that can explain why Luke beat a usually more powerful Vader.
If we count the prequels, based on feats, Luke should be nowhere near Darth Vader in power.
It's doubtful Luke would even defeat Anakin from AOTC.
Luke does some impressive stuff like force choking the two Gamorrean guards (keep in mind that force choke is infinitely more powerful than force push), take a glimpse into Darth Vaders mind or the fast jump in the Bespin duel.
But he is probably a better saber duelist than he is a "sorcerer". I like to think that some Jedi and Sith are more specialized in sabers and others in the "magic spells" category. Explains nicely why Windu could defeat Palpatine when Yoda couldn't.
Would fit. Though Palpatine (at least in TCW) is apparently no slouch with a saber (or two at once).
What's interesting too is how when he force chokes those guards, it's almost like an afterthought. It takes him no effort.
I don't really take him killing redshirt Jedi with a saber that seriously. They don't seem competent at all as they stand like statues while he cuts them down (and I don't care much what the EU tells me about them).
Against a real specialist like Windu Palpatine lost, another Jedi more focusing on magic spells (Yoda) he fought to a draw. Fits.
I was thinking more of TCW's scene with Sidious vs Maul & Opress.
That was one of the typical "Hey, lets show Palpatine as an unbeatable dark force god" moments that are so prevalent in the EU nowadays.
I'm basing this on the films because although I've read the Thrawn trilogy up to the Corellian trilogy in the EU, I can't recall much of Luke's actual fighting in it.
In terms of the force, I'd say Vader's control of it exceeds Luke's fairly easily, which can be seen in ESB. There's no contest there. Luke can't even deal with simple objects being thrown at him, something a competent force user would handle with relative ease. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that though because he was young and inexperienced, whilst Vader obviously had more time to master the various aspects of it. He does improve slightly by ROTJ as well.
Physically, Luke bitch slaps Vader all over the place. Clearly, I don't mean in terms of stature because there's a massive difference in height between the two. But, if you're talking in regards to fitness and athleticism then it's clear Luke is in far better shape. Which, of course, is only natural considering Vader is missing a leg or two whilst being heavily reliant on prosthetics. So with that in mind. Over longer, more drawn out duel between the two, which we never had the pleasure of seeing, unfortunately. I think Luke would have a definite advantage with his better conditioning, provided he could keep the pace up throughout.
Finally, their mastery of the lightsaber. This is probably the toughest to call for me, but if I was pushed, then I'd say Vader has a slight edge. Which, again, is down to his experience and better training. Luke holds his own though and obviously has the upper hand in ROTJ towards the end, but how much of that is down to the conflict in his father? We'll never know, I guess.
One thing is for sure though. Anakin from ROTS would have destroyed Luke.
In all of SW, who defeats who in any given situation isn't necessarily indicative of who is the most powerful. There are too many different circumstances at play. On the face of it, though, as there's nothing certain to say otherwise, if I had to choose I'd have to go with what appears on screen. Luke defeats hime fair and square.
The force didn't chop off his 3 remaining limbs and leave him to burn alive
Like the super-speed running Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan use when they're cornered by Dekkars on the TF ship, never to be used again.
Obi-Wan had defeated Anakin in ROTS. Dooku had defeated Anakin in AOTC. That did not make both men more powerful than Anakin. Brute force or power does not always win.
And in the end . . . who cares? It doesn't really matter.
I read online somewhere that Vader benches tree fiddy while Luke only benches a buck forty. Luke doesn't even lift.
You guys are both right. Sometimes the plot conveniently overrides the power-level aspect....
That seems more in line with the original intention of Vader's injuries. His electrocuted skeleton showed an interesting neck injury that seems to have been caused by a fall (noticed that from an old TheForce article). I guess having Vader left as a paralyzed triple amputee would have been overkill.
I'm going to say Luke had the potential to be stronger than Vader; we see this when he taps into the Dark Side. Vader's age and condition have limited him, but Luke has the potential to be as powerful as Anakin in his prime. To have the Emperor buy into the plan to turn Luke, as opposed to simply killing him, he had to see promise. In fact, he was completely sold on the idea when he wanted Luke to kill Vader before him and replace him. So going by the Emperor's view, I'd say Luke is more powerful.
Lucas said in an interview, I think right around the time ROTS came out , that Luke had the same potential Anakin had.
No question Vader had more control of the force, but Luke was getting strong fast, and physically he was entering his prime. Combine that with his rage at the suggestion that Vader would turn Leia and he was able to fight with much more ferocity and focus in ROTJ.
Well considering George Lucas named Luke after himself, I'd say Luke is stronger
In the movies it's hard to tell as Luke was essentially a Padawan until he turned his father back to the light side...
In the EU, it showed Luke as extremely powerful...
I'd like to bet Luke.
Vader is stronger because he is better trained then Luke(I tend to think of the force like a muscle some of the power is always there due to genetics, raw ability but just like a muscle repetition develops it and Vader has been at it for 30 years Luke about 4 or 5 by ROTJ) He is still the chosen one and while the prosthetics hinder him in that he cannot conjure Force Lighting and he does not have the full range of physical motion that he had during the clone wars he is still more powerful than anyone but Palpatine per Lucas in the ROTS commentary track.Vader injuries even can be seen to Help him in certain ways. He is not as Reckless as he once was which causes him to fight more defensive to protect his chest control box. His robotic arms make him insanely strong without the force. His armor though does hinder his range of motion.
Luke has the potential to be as powerful as Anakin should have been if not for Mustafar(Leia has the same potential too) but at the time of ROTJ Luke still is not there yet. IN the EU Luke Gets there and Luke 5-10 years after ROTJ would have wiped the floor with suited Vader. If we get to see Luke in the ST in full jedi mode(not likely due to Mark Hamils current age and overall physical condition) then we may even get to see Luke at this Level of Power.
At the point of ROTJ, I believe Vader was still the stronger of the two. And that really makes sense as Luke was still discovering the potential he has in the Force. Move this fight forward a few years and Luke would have developed more prowess with the Force and the lightsaber, then we would be discussing a different matter entirely. The fight I want to see (and of course it will never happen) is pre-Mustafar Anakin vs. Jedi Master Luke Skywalker. I believe that engagement would put the Obi-Wan vs Anakin battle to shame.
Luke holds back during the entire final battle, and when he finally lets loose he beats the snot out of Vader. I think the answer is pretty clear why this even a debate.
Then why did Luke beat him up?