CT Is Luke stronger than Vader?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by TheDisharmony, Jun 15, 2013.

  1. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

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    If you recall, Anakin could throw many objects as a padawan learner in episode II. In fact, I'd venture as far to say that he threw many more at once when he was a padawan.
    Then also his connection to the force was sufficient to jump hundred of feet onto a moving speeder during a high speed chase in the middle of busy Coruscant traffic. Just
    as Yoda claimed size matters not, I would imagine that distance matters just as much when performing tricks, such as chocking or telepathy. He was on a line of sight
    with admiral Ozzle, and that was obviously enough for probably any force user. I hardly think Dooku was a second rate villain. If anything, Grievous was second rate. Dooku trumps
    Grievous, and Grievous was quite a successful jedi killer.

    There isn't much proof that Palpatine ever taught Vader anything. You'll recall that Vader never needed instruction from Palpatine to learn how to perform a force choke. For that matter, neither did Luke.
    A lot of these dark side techniques obviously came to the user naturally. Palpatine told Vader to exterminate the jedi, and then he'd be powerful enough to save his Padme. So basically the only thing we know
    that Palpatine taught Anakin was that committing atrocities will give him the power he needed.
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  2. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Are we talking now about acrobatics or "force spells"? Because I already said that Anakin was probably better in the physical (read saber fighting) department. I also wouldn't compare the acrobatics of the PT with the OT because obviously one trilogy was shot in the 80ties and the other not. Do you really want to use stylistic differences as proof that one force user is stronger than the other? Because if yes then obviously Starkiller is "THE MAN". :confused:

    I don't recall Anakin throwing multiple objects in AOTC. Could you point out the scene? I've only seen the movie twice or so because it is the one I hate.

    As for distance not mattering it sure matters when it comes to the force lightning. So why would it not matter with other powers? And how was Vader in line of sight with Ozzel? He chocked the guy through a view screen.

    I can't remember Anakin actively doing much of anything with the force unless you count something like levitating a pear.

    Dooku for me is second-rate because he is not even in all three movies, has barely a discernible personality and didn't get a lot of screentime. Grievous is absolutely pathetic in the movieverse.

    I'll give you your second paragraph though. Learning powers was pretty easy in the OT. Still, Vader had to deal with functionaries like Tarkin and make a name for himself before he could even attempt to take the Emperors place.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jun 30, 2013
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  3. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

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    Most of the acrobatics jedi perform are a result of their skills with the force. Anakin being able to land on the right speeder during that chase
    is a direct result of his connection to the force. Starkiller is the man. But I've heard that he is no longer a part of star wars cannon. Correct me if I'm wrong there.

    During Anakin's battle with Genosian guards inside the droid factory, Anakin hurled several droid parts at his attackers at a much more impressive rate then the few objects he hurled at Luke.

    Sidious was the only enemy that appeared in all three movies. Yet he only engaged in battle during one movie. I rather choose to look at their accomplishments in battle. Dooku's are considerable.

    Vader did have to have support. And yet, he had 20 years to go about doing that. But I'm under the impression that he was reviled and feared within the empire, and made little to no effort
    to dehtrone Palpatine until Luke became a player.
  4. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    For what's it worth, Starkiller is canon. But if you think TFU is canon then you should keep in mind that Vader does very over the top things in TFU as well, stuff that no PT-Jedi ever could. I still think that comparing the depiction of lightsaber fights in 80ties movies with present day movies with video games with cartoons and what have you is utter nonsense.

    Btw., Vader partially ripped those machine parts out of their sockets in TESB. They weren't all laying around for him to grab.

    Tarkin held command of the DS in ANH, not Vader. And obviously being feared isn't remotely enough to be an Emperor. You gotta have allies, strong allies.
  5. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

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    Practically everyone was doing over the top things in TFU. That was the nature of TFU, but not the nature of Star Wars. It's not really a good measuring stick.
    No more than the early clone wars shorts, where Yoda crashes droid drop ships, or Windu defeats a thousand super battle droids is a good measuring stick.

    Vader did rip those objects out of the walls, which is impressive. But there is nothing saying that any experienced force user couldn't do that. Is it any harder
    than lifting a submerged x-wing out of a swamp?

    What I was pointing out was, that Vader was reviled and feared by the same people that would need to be his friends in order for him to take power.
    In other words, for 20 years, he never even attempted to dethrone Palpatine, and was in fact, working against his chances of ever doing that, because
    the imperial big wigs would never back someone that they hated so much. Had he actually tried to gain support wihtin the empire before Luke arrives,
    I would say that he at least thought there was chance that he could wrestle the empire away from Palpatine. With Luke at his side, I believe he thought
    he could do just about anything again.
  6. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    RotS Vader and OT Vader are apples and oranges in terms of power I'd say. The young, fully able bodied man who believed himself to be invincible had many emotional frailties which made him vulnerable, but the experienced, composed dark side master of the OT was a shadow of his former self physically. Different situations would advantage each I'd say. Overall, I'd rather have OT Vader on my side than PT.
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  7. Legacy Jedi Endordude Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 9, 2012
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    No, I believe Anakin is stronger, but that doesn't mean Luke couldn't beat him, Luke had the chance to kill him when he cut off his hand on the Death Star, but instead he decided it wasn't the Jedi way!
  8. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

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    It's difficult to judge jedi/sith lord power levels by what is shown on screen, so we often have to rely on dialogue. Near the end of ROTS, Sidious told Yoda that Vader would become more powerful than either of them, and Yoda claimed that Vader was not as powerful as Sidious when he sent Obi Wan to Mustafar. Obviously, near the end of ROTS pre-disfigurement Vader had yet to reach his peak power. I think he was far from it considering Darth Sidious's epic display of power during his duel with Yoda. OT Vader never displayed power even remotely close to what PT Sidious did. But was that just because one trilogy was made decades after the other? Personally, I don't think so. Technological advances in film-making aside, George still had the OT as a vague guide for what force user could and could not do. Although he pushed force powers to the extreme in the PT, I don't think he broke continuity between the two trilogies. If that were so, Yoda would have been able to keep up with Sidious a lot better than he did, and they would have been tossing dozens of senate saucers at one another. While Sidious managed several, Yoda managed one. I think Sidious was rightfully just that much more powerful than anyone, at the time.

    So the questions are, did Vader ever surpass Sidious in power? and did his disfigurement stunt his ability to feel the force?

    If his disfigurement choked off his abilities, then there's a good chance Luke had a strength advantage by the end of ROTJ.

    Considering that he was middle aged in the OT, I personally don't think post-disfigurement Vader was ever going to surpass his master.

    If Vader had not lost some of his connection to the force, then I can't see any reason why or how someone who should have at least rivaled Sidious in power got tossed around as much as he did in that final fight with Luke. It's easy to say Vader was conflicted, but Luke was just as conflicted, if not more-so. Not only did he not want to fight Vader, but Sidious was there taunting him all the while (serious taunts, like turning the Death Star on the rebel fleet) as the rebellion was losing the battle against the Empire.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Jul 2, 2013
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  9. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Sidious wasn't all that strong in the OT. He was like a turtle on his back when Vader threw him into the shaft. Couldn't find another solution for the problem rather than blast away and blast away senselessly. His fight against Yoda is a typical example of Lucas retconning his own story by inserting needless sillyness. In any case one depiction is not more "right" than the other. Obviously I only view the PT as a kind of appendix, taken with a giant grain of salt. The OT is "Star Wars" to me, the PT not so much.

    As for Luke winning against Vader: Luke is simply very strong too. There is a reason imo why Yoda and Obi-Wan needed him and that wasn't age. He simply is a force prodigy and I think he had a shot of defeating Sidious (otherwise sending him after the guy wouldn't make any sense, don't you think?). No, Yoda and Ben knew he had a real chance to win, that's why they sent him into battle.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jul 2, 2013
  10. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

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    Good points all. I like the OT as much as the PT. I don't really see a difference in how the force abilities were displayed. Qui Gon, Dooku, most other jedi didn't seem any more powerful than OT Obi Wan, Luke or Vader.
    As far as Sidious goes. his downfall was a result of being caught unaware of the changing situation as it was happening, and not so much a matter of not being as powerful as he was in ROTS. He wasn't facing someone as experienced as Yoda, so there was no deed to pull out a lightsaber, and the Death Star throne room did not have as many object to throw around at Luke, not that he needed to throw anything.

    But true, Obi Wan and Yoda may have believed Luke had a chance to defeat the Emperor. It's unclear because they probably didn't know for certain whether or not Luke would face the emperor so soon. It's very possible that Yoda expected Luke to pass on what he had learned to Leia first, and then face Vader and Sidious, which would have made for much better odds. Yoda and Obi were never in on the Rebellion's attack plans. And they certainly weren't in on Sidious's plans for an ambush at Endore. More than anything, Luke symbolized a new hope for spreading the jedi belief.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Jul 2, 2013
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  11. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Give me a break. He had ample time to do "anything", like breaking Vaders grip with telekinesis or levitating Vaders lightsaber to him or whatever. I thought he had Jedi reflexes or something (TPM, ANH). It seems far more realistic he simply didn't have the ability to do something more effective at the moment. 'cause Vader is strong too.

    As for your other point I have no idea why force power is so inconsistent or why Lucas chose to retcon Yoda and Palpatine into these ├╝ber-force fighters or why he made their duel look like a video game.

    If they didn't believe that Luke could take on Palpatine and Vader that would make the story a logical disaster, because then their entire plan would make no sense. Unacceptable for me. Yoda could still have continued teaching Luke in ghost form, but he chose not to. Why? Because Luke was ready. He said so himself. What he didn't say in RotJ was "more training you require".
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jul 2, 2013
  12. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

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    Oh, I never said they didn't believe he couldn't take on Vader. But taking on Vader and Sidious at once is a different story. They obviously never prepared him for that. All they told him was to beware the powers of the emperor. Not much of a preparation, wouldn't you say?
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  13. JEDI-RISING Force Ghost

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    he did warn him of the Emporers' powers. It seems to me he was concerned more of Luke's mental strength than his Force powers.
  14. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

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    Saying the Emperor has powers, and actually preparing him to fight a guy who took out Yoda are two differing things, especially when Luke was only one person, and the Sith were two. They could never be sure that Sidious wouldn't pull out a lightsaber and go toe to toe with Luke alongside Vader.
  15. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Vader was quite honourable in duels. He had no backup when he fought Obi-Wan or Luke, though he could have had on both occasions. Maybe they knew Vader well enough to know he wouldn't team up with Palpatine against Luke.
  16. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

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    It's possible they knew that, but doubtful. Vader, and the sith in general were full of unexpected tactics, and the jedi were terrible at second guessing them. Yoda and Obi Wan had no idea Vader would reveal that he was Anakin to Luke, even though it would seem like a no-brainer to you and me. It was the truth, so why wouldn't he reveal it? Still, they figured that he wouldn't do it. Yoda also considered Dooku beyond telling the truth about Sidious ruling the Republic Senate, and therefore practically disregarded his words.

    It's not likely that the jedi would risk the future of their already endangered order on the off chance that a Sith Lord, Vader or not, would be honorable. Besides, the jedi engaged the sith two on one, in favor of the jedi, several times, and never considered it dishonorable. It just was what it was.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Jul 2, 2013
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  17. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Maybe that's exactly why they kept telling him not to go.
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  18. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

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    They kept telling him not to go in TESB because he wasn't ready to face Vader. But in ROTJ he was ready to face Vader. He just wasn't ready to face Vader and Sidious together.
    It's pretty obvious that he wasn't, because while Vader was defeated, Luke threw his weapon away and decided to have a conversation with his true enemy, instead of a battle.
    Sidious decided he'd heard enough talk, and attacked. He didn't even need to sneak up on Luke in order to catch him completely off guard, because Luke wasn't prepared to face him.
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  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Luke threw his weapon away because fighting would mean becoming a Sith and he didn't want that to happen. He'd rather die. It has nothing to do with underestimating his opponent.

    There was two cases of precedence in which Vader proofed his battle honor.

    1) Fight with Obi-Wan on the DS
    2) Fight with Luke on Bespin

    In both cases, zero trooper backup and no mean tricks like mines or forcefields or whatever. Obi-Wan also knew Anakin personally, something we should keep in mind.

    Yep, the Jedi themselves aren't overly honorable when it comes to duelling. In the case of lightsaber fights the Sith were "nicer" so to speak, maybe because the Sith are more prideful (I don't need no help!).
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jul 2, 2013
  20. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

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    it's true that we never see the sith fighting with greater numbers in the movies. And Vader didn't generally use back up.
    But the jedi didn't consider it dishonorable to fight two on one, so I don't think they took Vader's honor under consideration.
    This is a matter of a certain point of view. Vader may have considered it dishonorable. (I really don't know) But the jedi certainly didn't.
    So they may have had a different point of view than Vader.

    Also, we have to consider the fact that if Sidious was there, Vader could not keep him from fighting a 2 on 1 battle.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Jul 2, 2013
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  21. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Yea, but nothing stops him from lowering his own lightsaber, making it 1 on 1 again.

    In any case the Jedi probably didn't know that Luke would meet Vader and Palpatine at the same time.
  22. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

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    we'll agree on that much :). Although I can't see Vader lowing his blade. He did have an objective in getting Luke to fight, and Sidious was still his master.
    It would be like Obi Wan deciding not to help Qui Gon fight Maul. Very unlikely.

    Besides, he was known to go 2 on 1 as a jedi. And I would find it hilarious if he gained a greater sense of honor simply because he joined the darkside. A man THAT honorable would have invaded the jedi temple with exactly as many clones by his side as there were jedi inside the temple.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Jul 2, 2013
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  23. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    The Sith have no honour. They would scorn the very concept. They do what they need to do in order to gain the power to have control, their ultimate desire.
  24. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Nah, that's not true, at least not for all Sith. Otherwise Vader would've brought some soldiers with him in his duels against OBW and Luke. Some Sith have some sort of personal honor code, but of course that doesn't make them any less evil.
  25. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    Impossible to say with certainty, but IMO Vader confronted Obiwan alone because he wanted revenge. He confronted Luke alone because he wanted to turn him and use him to augment his power.