CT Is Luke stronger than Vader?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by TheDisharmony, Jun 15, 2013.

  1. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Even Vaders looks are modelled after a Samurai warrior and those had a honor code too. It's typical for a "fallen knight" that he would cling to a shred of honor. As for the Luke confrontation he wanted to put Luke into Carbonide and would've succeeded with the help of a couple troopers.
  2. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

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    He could have succeeded with their help, but there's also the chance that one of them would have killed Luke. Vader couldn't trust anyone not to kill his son.
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  3. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

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    Dead right. The Sith are all about control. As soon as Vader brings anyone else into that exchange, he loses a degree of that.
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  4. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Nope. Blasters set on stun, that's how you capture someone. And that's how he captured Leia on the Tantive IV.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jul 3, 2013
  5. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

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    That much is true. Although the Tantive IV isn't a city in the clouds. On a space ship, there aren't any easily accessible openings to the outside. Luke and Vader fought in a place where there were many ways one could take a long drop to their death if they weren't careful. Imagine taking a non-lethal stun blast in the back, which pushes you off an inconveniently placed ledge. Vader didn't necessarily forgo using troops because of his honor. 1. he wanted to test Luke's abilities. 2. It was a delicate situation. Because if he lost Luke, he would never dethrone Sidious. As it was, Luke nearly did take one inadvertent tumble, and eventually jumped when there was no where else to go.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Jul 3, 2013
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  6. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    I don't think so. Vader was perfectly willing to risk Lukes life in the battle of Hoth. He couldn't know if Luke would survive that ordeal.
    The Carbonide freezing procedure would also have been risky. It had only been tested with one test subject.
    Vader also used a lightsaber in his fight against Luke, a weapon that can easily kill an opponent.
    All this is indicating that back then Vader wasn't all that worried about Lukes well-being in TESB.

    I agree though that Vader wanted to test Lukes abilities. I am still surprised however that you would think he could have no honor code when he is dressed like a black samurai knight and referred to as a fallen hero.
  7. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

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    In war, one can never be certain of anything. What was certain, is that if Vader was ever going to turn Luke to the darkside, he was going to have to
    flush Luke out of hiding. Realistically, there was no way Luke was just going to surrender to Vader without a fight. using the lightsaber was a necessity.
    Using back up was not.

    Sure, he's a fallen hero. But a fallen hero is not a hero. Honor aside, Vader had a job to do, and the fact that Luke escaped made him look bad.
    George Lucas also modeled the jedi after samurai, but according to your reasoning, they didn't show honor in duels, and Vader did. Even as a jedi,
    back when Anakin actually was a hero, he was known to engage a single opponent alongside Obi Wan.

    Another reason why you will almost never see troopers interfere in a melee contest in Star Wars, is because the chances of one of them shooting the wrong guy
    are far too great. 10 stun bolts, even on an armored sith lord, will eventually take a physical toll.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Jul 3, 2013
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  8. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

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    I'm not sure whether wearing Samurai suit would instill honour in someone previously prone to slaughtering children and strangling pregnant women.
  9. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    No, it wouldn't. But when the OT was shot he didn't do those things.

    Using backup wasn't a necessity, but it would've increased chances.

    More evidence for my theory: Vader tells Palpatine "he will join us or die".

    I call it as I see it. When the OT was shot, the knightly nature of the Jedi was still a very important aspect of the story. They were called Jedi knights and would find with elegant weapons of a more civilized time. They were a callback to the old, romanticized myths about knights, and Vader was one of them before he fell. He is twisted and evil, but once he was a good man according to Obi-Wan.

    In the PT however the Jedi appeared more monkish than they were before and I feel like the knight-element was less relevant. Here the warriors don't act all that chivalrous, they are willing to team up against opponents or even kill an opponent who is already down (example: when Anakin killed Dooku).

    It's ridiculously unlikely they would shoot Vader ten times and not hit Luke. I also think that Vader has access to the best of the best. It is definitely less likely than accidentally killing Luke with the lightsaber.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jul 3, 2013
  10. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

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    Using back up could also increase chances of making everything go totally wrong.
    I personally don't think Vader wanted Luke to die under any circumstances. He can't very well tell Palpatine that Luke will either join or live.

    As a jedi, Anakin was bound by a code of honor. But as a sith lord, he was bound only by that which he could not get away with. He left his old ways behind just as sure as he abandoned his birth name. He effectively became a different type of person. Honor was not Darth Vader's first priority.

    I never saw a single stormtrooper in the OT that I would trust not to hit me in that situation. None of them displayed any great level of marksmanship. In fact, during the Obi Wan/Vader duel aboard the Death Star, Vader never had to tell any of them not to interfere, because it would be beyond foolish for any of them to try. And I'd have to believe that Darth Vader would not appreciate being shot even once. Imagine, the first shot hit's Vader, (it's at least a 50% chance) and Luke escapes, or uses that moment to strike Vader down...
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Jul 3, 2013
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  11. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

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    True. But he did torture a young woman with an unspeakable needle toting device because she wouldn't give him information and strangle imperial officers to death for not successfully implementing battle strategies. The man is basically a psycopath.

    All of that aside though, the idea of the Sith and honour being compatible is just incongruous to me. Their MO is essentially deceit and manipulation in order to get what they want. They slink around in the shadows playing political games and start wars costing countless lives in order achieve power. Even between themselves they are two faced and deceptive. Before the Emperor, Vader's all respectful and 'Yes master' but he secretly wants Luke to join him in order to overthrow Palpatine. On the other hand, the moment Palpatine thinks he's found a stronger apprentice in Luke, he's happy to ditch Vader, despite all his years of service.

    The idea that these same same people would be concerned about a fair fight in combat just seems at odds with everything else that they do.

    Having said that, you make some good points there about the Vader / Luke duels Pevra. Perhaps before the PT the Sith aren't quite so deceptive and there is a shred of honour remaining there. Overall though, I struggle to see it.
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  12. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Wasn't saying he has a honor code that is compatible with ours, just that he has some sort of personal code. Obviously he had no problem with torturing or killing those he considered incompetents or enemies. Deception and betrayal was also fair game to him when I consider what he did to Lando. I would compare him to the killer in no county for old men, who was also a psychopath and believed in special rules he made up for himself. Vader maybe believes that Jedi deserve better than normal men because they are "worthy opponents". I think Vaders "Jedi honor" simply became twisted into something very strange and crazy. But it is still a form of personal code, something Palpatine didn't seem to have.

    @Aegon Starcaster

    The evidence points to Vader not being particularly concerned for Lukes wellbeing. Just because he's gone soft in RotJ doesn't mean he is already half-turned in Empire. When he says "he will join us or die" I believe he is speaking the truth because I doubt he'd tell the Emperor a white lie (also the other evidence I already pointed out).

    If Vader uses troopers he doesn't even have to engage Luke himself. He could just order them to shoot and watch from afar (and if that doesn't work he could still personally engage Luke). That way there would be zero personal risk.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jul 3, 2013
  13. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

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    By this reasoning though, Vader diserved to die for letting Luke escape at Cloud City. Vader murdered Captain Needa simply for letting Han and Leia escape his grasp. So he doesn't really even believe in a code where incompetence should be rewarded with death. Any code that someone doesn't apply to themselves isn't a code that person actually follows. he killed Needa simply because he was angry. Not for some code of conduct.

    And yet it becomes obvious that without Luke, Vader will remain a servant for the rest of his life. It's imperative to him that Luke survive, even in the beginning of ESB, because Luke is the one chance that Vader has of ever becoming Emperor.

    The lives of the sith can be summed up in a simple vicious cycle. The student will crave the power of the master. This often leads the student to challenge the master in order to become master. Sidious seemed no closer to death in ROTJ than he was in ROTS, and I'm sure Vader saw that. I personally think Sidious achieved a measure of immortality, and neglected to teach that ability to Vader. Why create a rival you will have to deal with for eternity, especially when you already rule the galaxy?

    Once the sith conquered the galaxy, and Sidious achieved his immortality, Sidious needed to adapt the sith code once again. The rule of two needed to change. I don't think Sidious gave a whit about the sith order carrying on without him. Sidious needed Vader to take most of the political blame for atrocities the Empire was responsible for. Just as Sidious blamed the clone wars on the jedi, he used Vader as his scapegoat. Once the Death Star was constructed, he didn't need Vader much at all, because fear would keep the galaxy in line, and Sidious' political reputation would hardly matter at that point. Fortunately for Vader, the Death Star was destroyed soon after it was made completely operational.

    When fighting a jedi, ranged combatants shouldn't get too close. The more distance they have, the better. Unfortunately, the farther they are from their target, the less they can guide the outcome of any single shot they fire. If Luke is hit by a stun blast, and falls over a cliff, there goes Vader's best chance of ever becoming Emperor. If Vader decides to attack Luke, at the same time the troopers are attacking, then Vader will have a 50% chance of being the one to get hit by a stun bolt. If he gets hit, then Luke will have a good opportunity to finish Vader off. Vader is a "do it yourself" type of character. I'm sure he saw the disadvantages to introducing wild cards like stormtroopers into the situation.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Jul 3, 2013
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  14. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Needa fell for an old smugglers trick. He didn't even have TIEs swarm out to search for the falcon.
    Vader had a plan B and it only didn't work out of plot-contrivance (R2 the magical Deus ex Machina fixing the falcon last minute).

    Luke's the only chance for him to become emperor? When was that said in the OT? It wasn't, your inventing things. I however can proof that Vader was okay with Luke dying in TESB, it is both seen in actions and dialogue. So please point me to some real evidence. Otherwise I will not be convinced.

    There were no cliffs in the room they first fought in. Only when Luke crashed through one of the windows did the fight become dangerous for him. Again you are making things up. I also fail to see how it could be any difficult to surround Luke with troopers and simply shoot at him until he drops. Isn't exactly rocket science.
  15. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Specifics?
  16. Major Smith Jedi Youngling

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    I always thought it was because he simply didn't want to push Anakin into the Lava, almost as if he was trying to detach himself from the situation, I mean he hacked off his limbs in a move of defense but to then finish off Anakin would of been very hard for obi-wan to do purely because as he said in his rather bromantic speech he did love him.

    As said above as well Obi-wan knew that the force would deal with it, just like he realizes in episode 4 when he surrenders himself to the force. It could also be argued in all fairness that someone isn't going to survive getting three limbs cut and being left on fire. I don't even know how the emperor was able to keep him alive
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  17. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Like I said, Luke was at risk in the Hoth battle, when Vader fought him with a lightsaber and when he put him into the freezing chamber (one test doesn't eliminate all risk). Dear ol' dad also cut off his hand.

    Vaders statement "He will join us or die" seals the deal for me.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jul 4, 2013
  18. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    In the Hoth battle, Vader did not yet know for certain that Luke was his son. At least, according to The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader.

    And since Vader's talking to the Emperor - of course he's going to paint it as "join or die".
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  19. DanielUK Force Ghost

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    By the end of RotJ, I would say both were equals n terms of combat style.

    However, Vader is more powerful in the Force due to his knowledge/training being far greater than Luke.
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  20. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Then the book is wrong.

    Ozzel: [annoyed] My Lord, there are so many uncharted settlements. It could be smugglers; it could be pirates; it could be...
    Vader: That is the system! The Force tells me so. The Rebels are there...and I am sure Skywalker is with them. Set your course for the Hoth system!! [turns to General Maximilian Veers] General Veers, prepare your men!!
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jul 4, 2013
  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    That says nothing about him knowing the precise relation of "Skywalker" to himself.

    We do have the updated ESB movie showing his incredulous reaction to the Emperor revealing that Luke Skywalker is Anakin's son : "How is that possible?!"
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  22. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

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    Old smuggler's trick or not. The falcon appeared to either have cloaked, or jumped into hyperspace. Very little reason for him to send out patrols. Vader's plan B wasn't a very good one, considering all artoo had to do was turn a dial in order to foil it. Whether it was a plot contrivance or not, the story goes as the story goes. Vader failed in his mission, just as Needa did.

    Yes. Luke is Vader's only chance of ever becoming Emperor. Not everything in stories are stated outright. Subtext often carries certain themes throughout a story, without ever being addressed in dialogue. Vader never lifted a finger in defiance of the emperor until Luke entered into the story. All of a sudden, Vader tries to seize on his chances to fulfill his role as sith apprentice, and succeed his master. He goes as far as offering Luke the chance to rule beside him, which is something the emperor never offered Vader.


    I'm not making anything up. The room they first fought in led to other rooms where there were cliffs. It wouldn't be very difficult for Luke to pass through a few doors and halls if he's facing Vader plus stormtroopers. Luke didn't exactly crash through that window either. That instance is the one moment when Vader turned the duel into a ranged confrontation, and what happened? Within a few moments, Vader's ranged attack causes a huge window to shatter, and Luke is sucked out into a deep chasm by extremely powerful winds. For that matter, Vader was almost sucked out with him.

    Luke is at risk just by the being alive, and being part of a rebellion. Vader can do absolutely nothing about that, but find Luke, and try to make him see things differently. Vader obviously wasn't trying to kill Luke with his lightsaber. And if Solo survived carbon freeze, what better chance would Luke, a jedi in training have? Vader did everything he possibly could to make sure Luke survived, and still complete his objective of capturing Luke.
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  23. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    He may have accepted punishment by the Emperor. We don't know. What I do know is that Needa is really incompetent, Ozzel level incompetent. He immediately gave up, he didn't even try.

    Vader had plan A, B, and C (that would be the star destroyer) and the falcon still escaped. Seems unlucky to me.

    Vaders actions AND dialogue tell me that Luke was expandable. You can't tell me the subtext is stronger than a direct quote. Of course it wouldn't be easy to find a Luke replacement but it was definitely possible (Leia...).

    Seeing as Luke didn't die from depressurization, the winds were probably conjured by Vader. The atmosphere outside cloud city is breathable, otherwise Luke would have died.
    Stun bolts are also not a kinetic attack. I don't think they would shatter a window.

    He could do all kinds of things, like sleeping gas, troopers with stun-blasters, etc. But instead he chose to duel the boy, a fairly dangerous and risky tactic.

    What other relation could there be with a Skywalker? Force sensitives are rare.

    His incredulous reaction was probably feigned because before he obviously knew the rebel pilot was named Skywalker.
  24. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    If he does not know his power is due to him being "conceived by midichlorians" - he may hypothesise that Skywalker is a long lost relative on Shmi's side.

    There's also the statement by Lucas that Skywalker is a very common name in the Outer Rim.
  25. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Yes, I guess it is possible, but I find it very unlikely. Vader must have understood that this rebel pilot could very well be his own son.