CT Is Luke stronger than Vader?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by TheDisharmony, Jun 15, 2013.

  1. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    How would this have worked better?




    Yet, when Chewbacca attacked Lando for Han's capture, Leia strongly goaded the Wookie to continue strangling the former smuggler, instead of making an attempt to put the matter to a stop. Why? Because, like Chewie, she lost her temper.
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  2. Cynicalx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2013
    I think they are both even by ROTJ, Luke got a bit more powerful since ESB and Vader remained the same imo.
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  3. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    In ANH Luke had next to no training in how to use the force. In ESB his training was far more extensive. For him to have gained the ability to go toe to toe with Vader in 3 years would have been more believable than the way it turned out. On the flip side, I can't see any important reason why ESB would absolutely have to take place 3 years after ANH. So, the way I see it, it would have been better had the years been switched. I don't make a big deal out of it, but I've always felt that way.
    I don't recall Leia goading Chewie at all. You might want to quote exactly how she went about doing it, cause Leia was never like "that's it Chewie, choke the life out of him!" She never even told Chewie to start choking him. "Strongly goading" is a pretty strong overstatement of events. I don't think Leia's berating of Lando can in any way be compared to what Luke did to Vader. If you want to see things differently, that is of course your choice though.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Aug 16, 2013
  4. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    By ROTJ it seemed Luke had far surpassed Vader.
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  5. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Don't know about far surpassed- but a match for him, at least, in lightsaber fighting- and able to overwhelm him when in a state of anger.
  6. Team Padme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    I'd say Luke is stronger than Vader, but not as strong as Anakin.
  7. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I don't know who is stronger.




    I never accused Leia of ordering Chewbacca to strangle Lando. Nor did I accused her of berating Lando. But I do remember this scene vividly:


    Chewie turns on Lando and starts to choke him.

    LEIA: Do you think that after what you did to Han we're going to trust
    you?

    Lando tries to free himself from Chewie.

    LANDO: (choking) I had no choice...

    Chewie barks ferociously.

    THREEPIO: (to Chewie) What are you doing? Trust him, trust him!

    LEIA: Oh, so we understand, don't we, Chewie? He had no choice.T

    LANDO: I'm just trying to help...

    LEIA: We don't need any of your help.

    LANDO: (choking) H-a-a-a...

    LEIA: What?

    THREEPIO: It sounds like Han.

    LANDO: There's still a chance to save Han...I mean, at the East
    Platform...

    LEIA: Chewie.

    Chewie finally releases Lando, who fights to get his breath
    back.


    The above scene did NOT reflect very well upon Chewbacca or Leia.



    I really don't see how the time span between the two movies mattered. I really don't. Luke wasn't able to go head to toe with Vader in "ESB" because he had only spent three months on Dagobah being trained by Yoda. This would have still been the case if only a year had passed between ANH and ESB.
    Last edited by DRush76, Aug 16, 2013
  8. The Galactic Empire Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2013
  9. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    It matters because like explained by Yoda using the force is a matter of inner tranquillity. Lukes inner change between movies resulted in him being able to control the force better than he could before.
  10. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    I never said you accused Leia of ordering Chewie to strangle Lando. I brought out that point to illustrate that Leia had nothing to do with Chewie strangling Lando at all. Doing that was strictly Chewie's choice. What you did accuse Leia of, was "strongly goading" Chewie into continuing his attack on Lando, which is not the case. It isn't the case in the dialogue you quoted, and it isn't the case in the films. Strongly goading would be what the emperor was doing to Luke during his duel with Vader in ROTJ, or what Vader was doing to Luke in their duel during TESB. Leia did not goad Chewie at all. Just because she didn't lift a finger to help Lando, does not mean she was choosing a dark path. It's not comparable to Luke's actions during the end of his duel with Vader in ROTJ.

    Darth Pevra has adequately explained my POV on this. After his training on Dagobah, Luke had a much firmer grounding upon which to train himself. His advancement in ability over a 3 year time span after TESB would be far greater than his advancement in ability after a 3 year time span after ANH.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Aug 17, 2013
  11. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    The problem is 3 years didn't pass between TESB and ROTJ. It was less than a year. If I recall correctly, it was actually only 6 months.

    I have no idea why GL set the films so close together. Luke's vast improvement would've made a lot more sense if 3 or 5 years had passed. I think Darth Pevra makes a good point. Luke has clearly matured between TESB and ROTJ and he established a greater sense of inner calm and confidence. However, using the Force is skill set too. That's why Luke goes though physical training exercises on Dagobah.

    It just seems weird for Luke to improve so much over 6 months, and that's why I take it that Vader was comprised when he fought given that he was conflicted (i.e. Luke senses the good him).

    And again, I have no idea why GL chose to put the 2 films so close together -- maybe to explain why Yoda couldn't join Luke in TESB in fighting Vader (b/c he was 6 months away from death) or maybe GL thought it would weird if it took longer than 6 months to save Han from Jabba??? Idk? These still don't seem like the best reasons to me.
  12. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    That was actually my original point. That only a year or less past between TESB and ROTJ, which could be seen as something of a problem if a fan was inclined to nitpick. DRush76 didn't understand why I made that point, so I had to reexplain it.

    The whole thing about Yoda being 6 months away from death doesn't really hold much water, simply because Obi Wan could have told Luke to get in contact with Yoda right after the battle of Yavin. There was 3 years there, in between ANH and TESB, in which Luke could have been training to become a jedi, that Yoda and Obi Wan basically wasted. If Yoda was in the least bit interested in helping Luke fight Vader, he could have helped Luke prepare much earlier than he did.

    You're explanation for Han kind of makes more sense, but as you stated, even that isn't the greatest of reasons.
  13. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    Yeah, I agree with you about the span of time between ANH and TESB. I hadn't thought of that. Luke should've gone straight to Yoda after a ANH. Maybe Lucas just didn't take it as seriously when he was writing TESB and he thought, "Well, 3 years have passed since I made ANH, so 3 years also passed between the events of TESB and ANH. Nodody's going to care." Then, after TESB, GL realized, "Hey, these films are going to be remembered for a long time after they're finished, maybe I should put some more thought into these little details." So, at that point, he thought, "Well, what's a realistic amount of time for them to get together and save Han? ...hmmmm 6 months. Oh, and wait a second, if Yoda's so powerful that he can lift an X-wing and Vader defeats Luke in part by throwing a lot of stuff at Luke, then why wouldn't Yoda go with him? Maybe Yoda was close to death. That might work and it fits in with making RTOJ only 6 months later." If something like that wasn't his thinking, then it seems like the passing of 3 years and then 6 months is totally arbitrary, and if that's the case, then why specify a particular amount of time at all?
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  14. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    I think at the point of ROTJ, Vader is still much stronger with the force, but is weakened by the damage from getting roasted like a marshmallow, and thus isn't as strong in physical combat; Luke had gained on him some in knowledge of the force since they fought in ESB, and could use these gains along with his physical advantage to overwhelm Vader in their last duel. Especially when Vader gives Luke a surge of anger with mentioning Leia, Luke comes out like he is shot out of a cannon.

    I believe Palp was doing something similar to what he did in ROTS with Anakin and Dooku; setting up a situation where the younger and (eventually) more powerful Jedi will take the other's place at his side.
    Last edited by Lee_, Aug 18, 2013
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  15. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I agree. Vader is strong, but physically he is still fragile in many ways. Makes me wonder why so many see him as a Sith warrior rather than Sith sorcerer.

    That's not true, at least not in the OT. Yoda and Ben explain how you use the force. You just concentrate it and do it. There are no special techniques to learn, it's all a matter of belief and inner calm. The best example is when Luke fails to raise the X-Wing out of the swamp. Yoda makes clear that a lack of technique wasn't the problem, but rather Lukes doubts. "That is why you fail." When a Jedi is in-tune with the force, he can do almost everything he imagines (but of course the brain can only focus on so many details, so moving entire fleets is not possible).

    Lightsaber battles are another matter. There the physical does come into play because while you still let the force guide your lightsaber, you must also have some physical strength to be effective with it.
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  16. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    It's difficult to judge Vader physically. Suffering constant pain, and the effects of painkillers would definitely be a factor in any one on one contest. But being that his limbs were mechanical, he might actually be physically stronger than the average human in a lot of ways. Admittedly, I don't know exactly how that works, his mechanical parts are still attached to human muscles, and they are probably not in the greatest shape. But we do know that jedi use the force to boost their physical abilities.

    The best example is Vader's dialogue to Obi Wan. "Your powers have grown weak." It's a funny thing to say to someone who has engaged you in a physical contest, unless there is something going on that isn't exactly visible. We also see Vader lift a grown man fully off the floor with no problem. He could have used the force to do this, but I have my doubts about that. If the force were involved, why bother using his hands anyway? But if jedi and sith lords use the force to make up for such physical deficiencies as what Vader suffered, then the physical side of a one on one contest is still much determined by one's strength in the force.
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  17. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    You're going to have to explain it again. Because to me, the amount of time between the three movies doesn't really matter. What really matter is the amount of time Luke spent between his training on Dagobah and his encounter with Vader on Bespin.
  18. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    My explanations are clear enough for others to understand. My objective in making that statement was never to get you to understand it. It's always been something I've felt, personally. Whether or not you agree is besides the point. Yet, despite all this, I have pointed out several times already, that the timing between film IS NO BIG DEAL, and that if someone is inclined to "nitpick" the films, then it is an issue they can bring up.

    I might agree with you here, if it wasn't for the fact that Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker also fought in ROTJ with a totally different outcome, and the fact that this thread is mainly about their confrontation in ROTJ and not their confrontation on Bespin.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Aug 20, 2013
  19. Bad Cane Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2013
    Luke was probably a little stronger until Vader mentions his sister and he hulks out! :mad:Then it's on like Donkey Kong.
  20. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    There is a specific factor in that different outcome on the second Death Star in ROTJ. Luke spent more time - probably a year or at least more than three months - continuing his Jedi training via Obi-Wan's journal, instead of the three months he spent being trained by Yoda, between his arrival on Dagobah and his duel with Vader on Bespin. I have a problem with the journal, because I believe Luke should have had an actual instructor instead of a training book to help him improve his skills.




    Only George Lucas knows who was stronger. Perhaps he'll tell us one day. Perhaps he already has and we don't know it. But I'm not going to pretend that I know whether Luke or Anakin was stronger.
  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Going by the comics (and Shadows of the Empire), he didn't spend much of that time studying Obi-Wan's journal. But he spent enough time to build his lightsaber, at least.
  22. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    I'm sure there are plenty of reasons for the different outcome in ROTJ. My point has always been that all of those reasons would be more believable if Luke was given more time between his two meetings with Darth Vader, because actively practicing force users will grow stronger with time. In TESB Luke was trying his hardest to kill Vader, while Vader was hardly trying. fast forward a year or less, and they are both pretty much on equal footing, and it's debate-able whether or not Luke had a slight advantage in power.

    Personally, I believe Luke appeared somewhat stronger than Vader in ROTJ. That doesn't mean I believe Vader was a slouch. Vader was a formidable opponent, but I I believe it should have taken any up and coming jedi more than a year to really stand toe to toe with Vader. After 10 years of training, Anakin, who was at least equal to Luke in potential if not more powerful, was schooled by Dooku, and it was another 3 years before Anakin could actually go toe to toe with him.

    Whether Luke studied a journal or not, he would doubtlessly advance more in power and skill after three years, then he would after one year. Instead Obi Wan and Yoda decided to waste the three years between ANH and TESB for some unknown reason.
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  23. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    Great points, and I would add one more. If Luke made so much progress between TESB and ROTJ when less than a year passed, then Luke should have god-like abilities after going through years and years of training after ROTJ, and though my knowledge of post -ROTJ EU is limited, I don't think Luke is close to god-like 10 or 20 years after ROTJ. GL says that Vader in the suit topped out at 80% of the Emperor's power (though he seems further than that to me), so if Luke was already above Vader, then that means he was just below the Emperor (again, he seems way below the Emperor), and he would've far, far surpassed the Emperor after a decade or 2 decades of training, and there is just no indication that Luke ever becomes that powerful. So, again, this all adds up to the point that Luke's power improved far too drastically between TESB and ROTJ considering how little time passed between the 2 films and how little his gains are after ROTJ.
  24. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    The same old song and dance. It's amazing how many times fans go out of their way to deliberately blind themselves from the dark or questionable acts of the saga's favorite characters (who are usually the good guys). First, it was Yoda. Then it was Obi-Wan. And now . . . Leia.



    Maybe you didn't find Leia's actions in this scene questionable, but I did. I guess Leia's actions or lack of actions have to be as subtle as a rampaging elephant.



    Certainly not during the three years between ANH and ESB. Why? Because no one bothered to train Luke. Nor did he conveniently have a journal to study from during that period.
    Last edited by DRush76, Aug 21, 2013
  25. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    Oh, I see. So someone's actions are bad, just because you say they are. Pardon me, George, but is that Dianoga poopoo?


    Subtle as a rampaging elephant? Is she responsible for everything that everyone does? Is she responsible for every stormtrooper that Chewie kills? The wookie is 200 years old. He's not an infant. Nor is he a slave. He was the one who was tortured, not Leia. I think it quite understandable that Chewie would be upset, don't you?


    Luke was not an actively practicing force user between ANH and TESB. Why? Because he didn't have the faith in it required to survive as one. His training with Obi Wan, was no where near as extensive as his training with Yoda. He did not display the same faith in the force during that three year time span, that he did after TESB. He had the most abbreviated of introductions to the force in ANH. Or are you suggesting that everything he would need to know would be in some sort of journal that can be studied in 3 months? And then he would be ready to defeat Darth Vader? I'm sorry, but that's a little hard for me to swallow. Vader was a master of the force. Whatever Luke learns in a journal, Vader already knows. That info might help Luke some, but it isn't going to make the big difference.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Aug 22, 2013
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