CT Is Luke stronger than Vader?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by TheDisharmony, Jun 15, 2013.

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  1. Zer0 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 3
    If they were both going all out in ROTJ, Vader would win.

    EU Luke teleports a lightsaber into Vader's skull and calls it a day.
    VanishingReality likes this.
  2. TX-20 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2013
    star 3
    Luke was definitely stronger than Vader. Vader couldn't even kill the Emperor in a straight up fight. He had to go in and sucker-throw-him-down-a-shaft to defeat him.
  3. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Victory in a lightsaber duel might not be indicative of who is stronger.
  4. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    Now that I will agree with. If lightsaber duels were indicative of who was stronger, then saber duels would be pretty pointless.
    At the same time, they can not be discounted either. I think there is a balance between how far strength in the force can carry
    a duelist against how far swordsmanship can carry them.
  5. Rachel_In_Red Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2013
    star 2
    The Emperor had a pretty easy time with Luke, too. I'm not saying who's stronger between Luke and Vader, but Palps would have handled either pretty easy at the time of ROTJ.
    TX-20 likes this.
  6. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    He couldn't handle an injured and exhausted Vader.
  7. Darth Gartin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2013
    star 1
    I don't think Luke was more powerful than Vader in ROTJ. I think Vader could have easily defeated him if he was trying to kill him. Luke was captured by the ewoks. You think Vader would allow that. I don't think so. But I do think that NJO Luke was much more powerful.
    kainee likes this.
  8. Skelter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    There is no way Luke is stronger than Vader. Not in the films anyway. Yes, he did beat Vader in a duel when he called upon the dark side and surprised the Sith Lord with an amazing display of raw force power, but that doesn't make him stronger than Vader. I don't think Vader was going all out anyways, his goal was to convert Luke, no Kill him..

    EU Luke?? Well, that's another story.
  9. Beezer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    For most of the fight, Luke wasn't going all out either. He refused to fight, lowered his defenses, and was just generally trying to convert Vader back to the good side.

    Once Luke finally does unleash and go all out, Vader is completely on the defensive and is quickly disarmed. Vader was struggling for his very life and doing all he could to fend Luke off, but was totally overwhelmed.
  10. Agarwaen the Elven King Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2013
    star 1
    He was distracted with Luke though.
  11. Skelter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    Perhaps so, but it just seemed to me that Vader from ROTJ, is not the same Vader we saw in ESB. EBS Vader was hurling objects at Luke, all while Engaging him in lightsaber combat. That right there is something we never see any other force user do. The Vader from RTOJ didn't even bother and use the force against Luke.
    IMO, ROTJ Luke Vs ESB Vader would be a much better match up.
    kainee likes this.
  12. Agarwaen the Elven King Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2013
    star 1
    I think that Vader would win though. Vader has powerful prosthetic limbs and has been practicing this stuff almost his entire life. Whereas Luke has only had a few months of training.
  13. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    I think ESB Vader is stronger, but ROTJ Luke is stronger.
  14. Malcolm Reynolds Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2013
    star 5
    Completely agree, and cheers on your name I miss that ballplayer.
    Garrett Atkins likes this.
  15. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    Lol, thanks, yeah I'm not really him.
  16. Malcolm Reynolds Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2013
    star 5
    Haha didn't think so but still got a kick out of the name.
    Garrett Atkins likes this.
  17. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    Yeah, I'm a huge fan of him, and he was my first avatar.:) Anyways, I think Luke gained experience in his knowledge and training from battles, while Vader has confidence in himself, but doesn't want to destroy Luke. Basically, their last battle was two guys not wanting to destroy each other (notice how Vader slowly swings his lightsaber when Luke has his off, and when he tosses it at Luke, he throws it slow to give Luke time to duck.) That's what I saw from the movies, anyways.
    Last edited by Garrett Atkins, Sep 5, 2013
    kainee likes this.
  18. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I heard that excuse so often. I wonder what is the greater handicap. Being distracted or missing a hand?
  19. Skelter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    Vader from ROTJ didn't fight Luke as serious as he did on ESB. This is a hard question to answer.
    kainee likes this.
  20. Dinos4Ever Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2013
    star 2
    Vader, as in "got his Force power growth stunted when he got hacked up Vader"? Yeah, Luke is definitely stronger than that guy. Vader won a lot of lightsaber duels because of his strength and size alone. The suit was incredibly restrictive for him; he could barely move his arms around in a suitable fashion that would have allowed him the broad, sweeping strikes we see him using as Anakin Skywalker. Vader depended a lot on his superior strength to physically beat his opponents into submission. He was incredibly powerful force-user still, effectively losing control of his own powers in ESB when he sucks Luke out a window with that force wind power and has to grab onto a nearby pipe so as to not be sucked out himself. Unfortunately, Vader's suit limited what he could do as a duelist, and so in a 1:1 with Luke, he is shown to easily lose, even after just a short while of training on Luke's side (Luke was able to beat back Vader over the edge of the carbon freezing platform in the Bespin Duel, though it's possible that Luke tapped into the dark side for assistance like he did for RotJ). We never see Luke's full force capabilities in the OT, but if the EU is anything to go by, Luke was far more powerful than Vader ever was at his height. If Vader had never lost the fight to Obi-Wan on Mustafar, he likely would have been the more powerful than Luke ever had been, but that's going into hypotheticals.
  21. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5


    Go to 3:37. Do you know how much force it takes to rip a steel object from a wall it is welded too? A lot. At least as much as throwing senate pods, if not far more.

    He also force chokes Ozzel over a few kilometers distance.



    1:06
    Ripping thoughts from a trained Jedi's mind in the middle of battle.

    Vader also detects Luke's presence over astronomical distances in ROTJ. He is also capable of speaking with Luke over those distances in TESB.

    These are feats unparalleled by any other Jedi or Sith in the entire saga.

    And you are telling me that ROTS-Anakin, a guy who gets himself trapped in an energy cage, has more raw power at his disposal than Vader??!!
    It is simply put not true. It is rubbish told to us by the master of rubbish George Lucas, who wants to polish his new heroes and villains and craps on his old ones.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Sep 6, 2013
    Aegon Starcaster likes this.
  22. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    Vader fought Luke just as seriously in ROTJ. He wasn't trying to kill Luke in TESB either. The difference between the two duels is that Luke wasn't as inexperienced in ROTJ,
    and didn't allow himself to be caught in as many disadvantageous positions. While Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke in ROTJ either, he had an audience for that duel, and he would likely
    get no better opportunity than that one to realize his plans for Luke and Palpatine, so he was still trying not to look foolish.

    The fact that Luke succeeded once or twice in making Vader look foolish is really a credit towards how much Luke had improved, not how much less Vader was actually trying.

    I love it when you get all "righteously indignant!" :D
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Sep 7, 2013
  23. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I just can't have my love be insulted!

    [IMG]

    :p
  24. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Why do people harp on who is more powerful with the Force . . . in terms of raw brute strength? Do we live in a society where brute strength or power is more important than a more subtle form of power?
    kainee likes this.
  25. Gray_Jedi R Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 17, 2013
    ROTJ Vader was way weaker than the one we see in TESB.

    Vader is not Anakin anymore. Because of his wounds and his suit's dependence, all Vader's power come from the Dark Side, including his ability for saber duels.

    Hovewer, as we see in the short interview with Luke in Endor, to this point of the story, Vader's inner confict is already on. Somehow he loves his son, and he doesn't want to kill him. Such emotions are completely opposed to the Dark Side. Thus, they weaken him.

    Confronting Luke, he's unable to reach the hatred and rage that make him powerful. Moreover, because of the rule of two, Darth Vader had to be totaly conscious that, once before the Emperor, only one of them both could make it out with life. That knowledge had to be torturing him and undermining his focus.


    I disagree. ROTS-Anakin, and especially, ROTS-Vader, has more raw power at his disposal than Vader. The problem is that he doesn't know how to use it.

    At the begining of the movie, a part of Anakin's power on the Force come already from the Dark Side or, at least, it's not as pure as the jedi say it should be. Anakin knows it and it scares him. Thus, he refrains himself from use it.

    Furthermore, Anakin doesn't know how to control it. It all depend of his emotions. The stronger are his emotions, the more powerful he is. But the stronger are his emotions, less control he has over them.

    When he become Vader, he's not longer afraid to use him emotions to increase his power. Hovewer, because of his recent transformation, his emotions are still a confused tumult. Again, he doesn't know how to control them. (See, Padmé)
    The power itself is useless if one doesn't know what to do with it. Worse, if one lets it take control over oneself.

    Vader, on the other hand, with a minor amount of raw power, has a perfect dominion over it. He has mastered his skills for decades. His emotions don't longer control him. He has overcome his weaknesses and his power is folded to his wishes.

    This is... until Anakin Skywalker begins to live once again. [face_shame_on_you]
    Last edited by Gray_Jedi R, Sep 18, 2013
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