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CT Is Luke stronger than Vader?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by TheDisharmony, Jun 15, 2013.

  1. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008

    Danger detection isn't an active power. It is a passive power and definitely dependent on your raw potential (Leia and Han for instance use it without being taught how). Yet Anakin stumbles into an energy cage.


    When Anakin and Obi do the force push against each other, they are at a standstill. Force push is definitely something that is amplified by anger. Anakin was supremely angry, moreso than Vader usually is. Yet he didn't manage to push Obi-Wan back.


    The Padmé choke he did in full rage mode (so we can say the dark side gave him full power at that Point) was fairly weak. It didn't even kill the target (compare how long it took Vader to kill Ozzel).

    Therefore, Anakin Skywalker was portrayed as underpowered. He is obviously far inferior to Vader in both skill and potential.
  2. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Say what? Han's not a Force-sensitive as far as we know.

    He wasn't necessarily trying to.
  3. Aaronaman

    Aaronaman Jedi Knight star 4

    Mar 12, 2013
    I think it came down to what they were fighting for...Luke was fighting for his friends, the rebel army, and pretty much the entire galaxy where as Vader was fighter for a Master he was starting to lose faith in.

    I think Vader was stronger in the ways of the force it's just Luke was able to channel the force more in that fight because he had so much more to lose.
  4. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

    Jul 5, 2013
    Sidious senses Vader is in danger while he is on Coruscant and Vader is on Mustafar. Yoda can clearly tell something is going on somewhere during Order 66. So there are plenty of Sith sensing and Jedi sensing moments, even at great distance. However, I always got the impression that actual telepathic communication was pretty much a family thing because we don't see any such examples among anyone but Luke and Vader and Luke and Leia.

    However, I am not sure I consider the distances at which they telepathically communicate in the movies as "astronomical". The cut-scenes are another matter, but in the movies they are in ships within close range.
  5. malaksilver

    malaksilver Jedi Youngling

    Oct 8, 2013
    i think we need to give the guys at death battle an email and find out that way
  6. CT1138

    CT1138 Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2013
    There's already a video of the two battling to the death; it's called the Final Duel in RotJ. :p
  7. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    Not really. Neither Luke nor Vader really wanted to kill the other.
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  8. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Sep 2, 2012
    Luke seemed to want to kill Vader when he battered down his defences, chopped off his hand, and put his saber to Vader's neck.

    A case could be made that it was only the Emperor's interruption, that stopped him from putting it through Vader's neck in those moments.
  9. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    Maybe, but the majority of the duel he didn't want to kill Vader.
  10. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 25, 2008
    I don't know who was more powerful. Nor do I believe that lightsaber skills was the sole means to label a Force user's level of connection to the Force.

    But I keep forgetting that our society is a firm supporter in the belief of the power of brute strength.
  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001

    Right. Whenever Luke loses his cool during the duel, he's wanting to kill his father. It only when he snaps out of it, that he holds back. The simple fact of the matter is that Luke isn't a cyborg like his father, which has diminished his ability to connect to the Force like he used to. Vader is certainly more experienced than Luke is, having trained ten years to use the Force and practiced it far longer than Luke. However, it is Luke's strong connection to the Force due to his being whole at Cloud City and 95% whole at Endor, that he is able to hold his own and beat his father. Especially when the latter wasn't giving it his best.
  12. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    I don't give a damn about Lucas' revisionist make-believe history. This supposedly "severed connection" of Vader doesn't show in the movies at all. Nobody is as adept at long range manipulation and telepathy as Vader. Vader is cream of the crop but so is his son Luke. They're both extremely powerful.

    You also don't need ten years to properly learn the force. If that were the case OBW would've trained Luke sooner. Just because the PT shows a longer training period doesn't mean you can't become a proper Jedi in a far shorter time. In fact Yoda seems to think that the only thing Luke was missing to become a real Jedi was a last confrontation with his father.

    The truth is that consistency in the saga doesn't exist and is all made up. It was thrown outta the window the day OBW made his little "certain point of view" speech and completely ignored afterwards.
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  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    Vader's diminished capacity centers around his fighting style being different, as well as doing the types of things that he could do as a normal man, versus what he is at now. As Lucas said, he's as strong as Dooku was. Still a threat to most, but not to the Emperor in direct combat.

    You're missing a few details. The Jedi train for as long as they do for two reasons. One, it has to do with knowledge and skill. Luke was quite capable in ROTJ, of that there was no doubt. In TESB, he wasn't which is why he was sweating and was battered around like he was, by Vader. He even tells Luke that he isn't a Jedi yet and knows that his training is incomplete. Luke is even unaware in ROTJ that Palpatine can do what he does with the lighting. But the second reason and the more important one, is that it has to do with mental discipline. Obi-wan was twenty five when he became a Knight. And before then, the Council did not think that he was ready to face the Jedi Trials. Even Qui-gon was of two minds on the subject, as at first he felt that he could do it, but then admits that he couldn't learn anymore from him. It is only through his resistance of the dark side while fighting Maul, that Obi-wan advances from Padawan to Knight.

    Anakin felt that he was ahead of everyone else when AOTC began, yet was still not allowed to take the Trails. Much less go off on a solo assignment until the Council orders it. But his skills were still spotty as Obi-wan points out that his skills aren't nearly as good as he thinks they are. This is proven when Dooku manages to beat him. It is through the Clone Wars that Anakin puts in the time and effort to become capable of becoming a Knight and then, through additional work, he is able to face Dooku and then best him.

    Luke's situation was different. He wasn't trained sooner because the Sith would find out about him before they were ready. Obi-wan had to sacrifice himself, so he couldn't continue Luke's training personally. And it was only when Luke had reached a certain point, that he was finally send to Dagobah. But then, Luke leaves before he is ready. The failures that Luke endured on Cloud City and the year he spent preparing to rescue Han, is what put him on the path to confronting the Sith. Yoda can sense that Luke has come a long way, but he cannot help him anymore. What was left was the emotional confrontation with the Sith. That was his Trial. But even then, as strong as he was physically, it was his psychological profile that was in doubt. Would he succumb like his father or not. He doesn't because he sees himself in his father. In this regard, Luke finally proves that he is stronger than his father because he resisted. Even afterwards, though he is a Knight now, Luke still has more years to learn and hone his skill. If Luke is in Episode VII, then given the amount of time that will have passed, Luke should be more of what his father was. And his skills with a Lightsaber should be closer to what the PT era Jedi was.
  14. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    He did kill the Emperor. The "allmighty" Emperor was incapable of defending himself, instead resorting to mindlessly blasting away with his lightning until he was killed. Dumbass.

    I also don't see anything wrong with Vaders fighting style. He fought well in all three movies. He was better than Obi-Wan for sure.

    I don't give a damn what Lucas says.

    Why wouldn't Luke be able to acquire the purity of spirit in a shorter period of time? He seemed quite serene in ROTJ until Vader pressed his berserk button.

    But ROTS OBW also wasn't the poster-picture of calm, even after decades of training. You can't tell me he didn't want Anakin to suffer on Mustafar when he gave him his little speech instead of a mercy kill. That was pure dark revenge.

    Anakin lacked the serenity and calm a Jedi requires to properly access the force. No surprise because he was basically a psychopath going on murderous rampages. Of course this kind of person isn't really a good or even halfway decent Jedi.

    Yoda is an idiot. He thinks Luke can simply leave his friends to die when this would cause anything from depression to Sithification in someone as empathic and sensitive as Luke. Knowing that he left his friends to die would have broken Luke. Yoda and OBW failed Luke as teachers, not the other way around.

    He was as psychologically capable as any other Jedi was. That he still almost succumbed to the DS shows how extremely dangerous it is, capable of warping even the most noble of spirit.

    What do you mean, stronger than his father? Anakin was a whiny weakling, but he never even seemed to believe in the Jedi way in the first place, but rather in dictatorship and revenge. Going Sith was more finding himself rather than turning from his so-called "true calling" as a Jedi. There was no "resistance" because he was already evil out of choice. Or are you of the opinion that every evil person is weak?
  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    Vader doesn't face him directly. He has to rely on Palpatine's inattention in order to terminate his ass. That's why he wants to turn Luke to the dark side. He knows that he cannot beat him on his own.

    Vader can fight, but he cannot fight like he did when he was in his teens and early twenties. His movements are limited by his injuries and his suit.

    You should. He's been consistent on this since TESB.

    In ROTJ, a full year after his short stint on Dagobah. Luke had gone through the baptism of fire on Cloud City and managed to survive. He realized that he wasn't ready to face Vader and in that realization, he redoubled his efforts to strengthen himself physically and mentally. Still, he shouldn't have been goaded into fighting as he was. He was getting there, but he still had a ways to go.

    He didn't do it because he wanted him to suffer. He did it because he was trained to never kill anyone that was no longer a threat. That was a central theme in ROTS and carried over from ROTJ. Anakin said that as a Jedi, he knew that he shouldn't have killed Dooku because he was no longer a threat. He was helpless. When it came to Palpatine, he thought it was hypocrisy on Mace's part to turn around and kill him, while Palpatine kept saying that he was growing weak and was helpless. With Obi-wan, he would have been justified killing him if he had aimed for Anakin's neck, instead of his limbs. But because he went for the injury, he wasn't justified in either slicing his head off, nor pushing him into the lava via the Force. He couldn't bring himself to pull him up, nor put him down at that point. Luke spares his father because he is one, his father and two, he is helpless.

    Anakin's power increased when he did use his anger and hate. That's why he was able to do what he did. His problem in AOTC was that he didn't take his training as seriously as Obi-wan had. He claimed that he was better than Obi-wan, but he is told that his beliefs aren't reality. He tells Anakin that if he put in the time and effort, he could even surpass Yoda. He wasn't a pyschopath for taking revenge. But he wasn't as disciplined as he should have been, that much is true. Hence why Obi-wan didn't want him to take the Jedi Trails.

    No, he is not an idiot. Han and Leia didn't want Luke to come after them and endanger himself for them. They were willing to sacrifice everything that they believed in and their lives, for Luke. To protect him because they knew he was of greater value to the Alliance and the future of the Jedi Order, than they were. Luke wasn't ready to make that sacrifice which is why he paid a steep price for it. At Endor, Luke must again face that choice. That's why Palpatine kept it under wraps that the superlaser was finished on the Death Star II. Why he arranged for the plans to be found by the Bothan spy network. He was using this to lure Luke out of hiding and push him into fighting Vader. He wants Luke to do that, because he knows that Luke has an attachment to those in the Alliance. Vader senses this as well which is why he keeps pushing until he finds the trigger that he needs. Luke ultimately realizes that he has to let go of them. Of his attachments. He had to accept that his friends could and quite possibly would die, to stop the Empire. That was their choice and possibly, their destiny. Anakin couldn't accept that which is why he betrayed everyone. Remember on Geonosis when Obi-wan asks Anakin what Padme would do, if the reverse had happened. If he had fallen out instead of her. Anakin says that she would do her duty and continue to pursue Dooku. We even see this when she stops to open fire on Dooku as he's leaving, hoping to disable his ship or even hit him.

    You have to remember that Anakin was being pulled in two directions. He was being taught the right way by Obi-wan, but he also had Palpatine teaching him the opposite of that. Anakin found himself favoring some of Palpatine's ideals because they had made sense to him. That didn't make him evil yet, just that the Republic was in such bad shape, that he felt that a more aggressive hand was necessary. But his turn was never about politics. It was about greed. He didn't want to lose Padme. He feared death and all that it entailed, because it was an element of nature that he had no control over. He failed his mother and now he felt that he was going to fail his wife, if he didn't do something to prevent that. He is weak emotionally because he hasn't given up his attachments. He hasn't trained himself mentally to prepare for the death of his loved ones. That's why he lashes out each time. He fears death and what it brings.

    When he turned, he did so because of his greed. His inability to let go of his loved one. He justified his actions as being for the better of the galaxy, but the core truth was that it was his own failings. Anakin only stops fearing death when he understands why Luke spared him and why this mattered so much. He accepts that death will come to him and all those around him. In letting go of that fear, he is saved. That is why he tells Luke that it no longer matters if he wears the helmet or not. He is dying and nothing can stop him from dying. He finally understood what Yoda was telling him.
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  16. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    Nothing but speculation. If Palpatine was handicapped by his "surprise", then Vader was literally handicapped.

    Because we can compare these fighting styles so well? A lot of the moves in PT fights are completely nonsensical.


    He can't even decide whether Luke should scream when he falls down at Bespin or not.

    What are you suggesting he should do instead? The rebellion stands better chances of winning when the Emperor is dead. Luke had a duty to fulfil.

    You are saying the Jedi are so weak-minded and cowardly they'd rather watch someone experience unbearable pain rather than put them out of their misery? They call it mercy-kill for a reason.

    His rage fuelled his dark side, but it didn't help him overpower OBW in that force push at Mustafar. He was still weaker than his master. Why? Because his rage was the tantrum of a child, not the hatred of a man.

    One hand for the escape of his friends and very valuable information seems like a very good trade to me. Do you think Leia and Han dying would be a better scenario? Luke followed his feelings and his heart like he was taught to do and it led him in the right direction.

    Is your real name by chance George Lucas?
    Just because you put this revisionist attachment **** in a movie that didn't have anything of that kind before. The dilemma of Luke is simple. Do I kill a man that I hate more than anyone else or do I show him mercy? Do I become a murderer or not? It was clear that murdering Vader wouldn't help his friends, it would only satisfy his dark lust for revenge.

    Anakin already betrayed all Jedi ideals in AOTC. Then he turned on the people he despised in ROTS. Not really an arc. He was unfit as Jedi from the beginning of AOTC.

    I don't care of the influences or excuses (poor little me, I am so frightened for Padmé, now I must kill all the children ... [face_sigh]), I care about choices and actions. And those show quite clearly what a man (child) this Anakin Skywalker really is.

    More of this attachments propaganda. Did you ever research bonding theory? Might be enlightening for you. And its certainly more valuable than obsessing on the so-called wisdom of one old man.

    Vader was never scared of death. He happily duelled with Jedi (instead of, you know, send 200 troopers at them or something) or chased down enemies in a small, fragile TIE.
  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    Palpatine wasn't completely handicapped as he did fry Vader's circuits. But Vader was literally.

    A lot of cinematic sword fighting is nonsensical, if you want to get technical about it. But in terms of storytelling, Vader was diminished quite a bit.

    Read the transcripts for ROTJ, when talking about Vader and Palpatine.

    And that duty was to prepare himself by completing the training.

    Yoda would have probably gone for the kill, had he been there. Obi-wan didn't because he had an attachment to Anakin and couldn't bring himself to fight him in the first place. And when he did, he still couldn't bring himself to kill him. That's why he left him to burn. It kept him from getting his hands anymore dirty than they already were.

    Neither one of them overpowered the other, which is why they both went flying.

    Vader's inner conflict would surface was an unexpected result of that confrontation. Something neither Jedi, nor Palpatine could have anticipated. However, Luke could have easily gone the other way and hate Obi-wan for lying to him. That he could have been tempted by the darkness within. That is why Luke says to Yoda that he was sorry. He wasn't as ready as he should have been and could have jeopardized himself. A Jedi must be willing to make a sacrifice. It's what Luminara told Ahsoka when Anakin was injured.

    That isn't revisionism. That is at the core the story. Sidious tells Luke that his friends will die and that he is powerless to do anything about it. That is why Luke lashes out. Because he is angry at the whole situation. Well before the PT, that was what the duel was about. It was more than just revenge on Vader. It was about the greater good. Sidious uses the threat to the Alliance against Luke and uses the anger that Luke is feeling for his helplessness to start the fight.

    Anakin hadn't turned on all the ideals. Just the ones regarding attachments and negative emotions. That was more of a lapse in judgment than anything. In ROTS, he turned on them not out of spite, but out of greed. A lust for power born out of fear. He despised what they had become.

    He kills the children because he has to prove to himself and to Palpatine that he is willing to walk the line of the dark side and step over it. He is told to not hold back and to show no mercy. He does it not for her, but for himself. It is always himself that he thinks of.

    To love someone is not wrong. To care for them emotionally, is not wrong. What is wrong is selling yourself for power. What is wrong is placing your needs above those of the ones you care for. Anakin falls because he places his wants and needs ahead of Padme. His salvation is in putting Luke's wants and needs ahead of his own.

    Fearing death isn't about his own mortality. It is about what comes with death. The loneliness and mourning that exists when one is gone that is no longer a part of your life. Anakin feared mortality because of that. He couldn't accept that there were limits to the Force. It is when he faces death at last, that he truly stops being afraid and accepts it. Yoda told Luke that he is strong, but not strong to enough to prevent his dying.
  18. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    In terms of storytelling he wasn't. Or can you prove to me that in the making of the OT the intention was to make him look weak? I don't think so.
    It's all retcon and revisionist history.

    And the fact that Lucas changed his mind and wanted to make Vader look as sympathetic as possible (shifting the guilt to his master Palpatine) has what to do with ANH and Empire?

    Winning the war > Jedi training

    We see what OBW does. Yet another lecture. While Anakin was burning he wanted to hurt him further - psychologically.
    He has a cowardly streak, this Obi-Wan. He won't recognize the darker sides of his own being.

    And Vader showing him pictures of a dead Leia and a dead Han wouldn't push him over the brink to the dark side? The mere mention of hurting Leia had him fly into an almost homicidal rage. Yet you claim he could somehow deal with both of their deaths.
    Luke Skywalker has seen too many close ones die in too short a time. He is not a robot.

    Yes, Luke doesn't like it when his friends are threatened. But these attachments also give him the strength to resist Sidious temptations.
    Having no attachments at all - or the obsessive kind (which is often caused by a lack of attachments in childhood) - is what causes psychological problems.

    Yes, he loves power, that is no surprise at all. But why does he have a mediocrity complex? Why does he constantly seek power and greatness and control? His love for his mom is not to fault I am telling you.

    I agree that it is always himself he is thinking of. He doesn't really love Padmé. She is just a convenient excuse.

    This is something I can agree with. But attachments =! obsessions

    This is true. Vader doesn't really care what others think is impossible. What he fears is losing control and power over a situation, whether this is death or something different. It's an old trauma because he was a slave on Tatooine and a slave to the Jedi. Only his father who "freed him" will he serve.
  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    It started with the fact that during the making of ANH, the suit was rather cumbersome and difficult for Prowse to fight in. It then carried over to TESB when Luke was able to do things that Vader couldn't do, such as leaping over him and having better maneuverability. You can see how problematic the helmet was with the making of footage from ANH. When Anderson wore the suit, he was able to do better, but in terms of comparing it to Hamill and the PT actors and stuntmen, there was a world of difference. Hell, you see Dooku do flips. Then when it comes to Force ability, that much is shown with Vader never using the lightning like Sidious and Tyranus.

    I wasn't referring to blame shifting. I was talking about Palpatine's power in the Force compared to Vader's.

    YODA: "Stopped they must be. On this depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil."

    The war would be won by having a fully trained Jedi face them. That is why Sidious ordered the raid on the Temple. All future Jedi would be a threat to him.

    That wasn't a lecture. That was Obi-wan venting his frustration towards Anakin for his betrayal. He believed in him, nurtured him and loved him. Obi-wan wasn't trying to hurt him. He was telling him good-bye in his own way.

    OBI-WAN: "Patience."

    LUKE: "And sacrifice Han and Leia?"

    YODA: "If you honor what they fight for...yes!"

    Luke, as a fully trained Jedi, would have had a better grip on his emotions. He wouldn't have surrendered to them and Vader would have nothing on him. His friends put their lives on the line to fight for freedom. As a Jedi, he should honor them for their sacrifices as they would for his.

    Having people in their lives is not a negative. Luke can love unconditionally his sister and his friend. What he must do and what he comes to accept is that these people will lay down their lives for the common good. That's why Han formally joined the Alliance and volunteered to lead the strike team mission to Endor. He was no longer carrying about his own ass, but those of everyone else that he fought with for three years. Leia showed her own strength when she lied to Tarkin about the location of the Rebel base on Dantooine, even with the threat of destruction to Alderaan looming. She even says later on that there will be time for mourning Alderaan later.

    Ah, but it is. Anakin's fault was that he left when he was nine. When he still had an attachment to her. When he had trouble between letting go of the past and accepting the coming change in his life. His failure in saving his mother was the result of, in his mind, his own limitations in the Force. As much as he didn't want to admit it, Obi-wan was right about him. That his abilities made him arrogant. He believed that he was strong enough to protect the ones that he cared for and found that he couldn't. He tries to blame Obi-wan, but the reality is that the blame lies at his own feet. And even then, he had to accept that he couldn't have saved her. So his obsession with power comes from his desire to stop death from afflicting those that he loves and that love transfers to Padme.

    No, he loved her. The problem was that he loved her in the wrong way. He had a possessive streak, but unlike the kind where the danger is always focused on both the person as well as outside influences, here it is just outside influences. He is afraid of life without her and thus he says that he cannot live without her. It becomes his needs. "I cannot live without her" and so on.

    There are two types of love. Unconditional which is what Luke had towards his father and possessive, which is what Anakin had towards Padme. Jealousy, possessiveness and obsessiveness can grow out of that love if one lets it. One must learn to cast aside all negative emotion in order to feel the correct form of love and understanding that comes with it.

    It isn't the slavery that caused it. It is his inability to understand and grow, because his connection to the Force is great and Palpatine is coercing him into embracing the power that lies within the Force. Luke is better able to manage it because of the years spent with the Lars helping to shape his world view, thus when he trains to become a Jedi, even when he questions the wisdom of actions, he is still able to resist the lure of power.
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  20. Yondo Kuromu

    Yondo Kuromu Jedi Padawan star 1

    Oct 18, 2013
    I think Vader is stronger but he was caught very off guard by the amplified power of Luke because of his anger and hatred. If he was ready for it, he could've fought him in a more even fight.
    VanishingReality likes this.
  21. Sith-Mullet

    Sith-Mullet Jedi Master star 3

    Aug 2, 2003
    At this moment, I think Luke was going through many conflicting thoughts. He only just met Uncle Palpy, and probably didn't have a lot of regard for his deadbeat dad. On top of that Yoda and Obi-Wan gave him that whole "Certain point of view " mumbo jumbo. I believe if Luke hadn't of kept it in check he would have killed Vader and then gone after Uncle Palpy. Of course, he would have been the one at the bottom of the shafts, but he would have still been stronger than dear old dad.
  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Sep 2, 2012
    I think Lucas said that Luke and Anakin had the same potential, but since Anakin's potential was crippled by his maiming, Luke is more powerful.

    However, Vader is more skilled (normally) - it's only Luke's burst of anger that allows him to overcome Vader in RoTJ.
    MasterSkywalker86 likes this.
  23. son_of_skywalker03

    son_of_skywalker03 Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 7, 2003
    If Vader was out to kill in the duel in RotJ Luke never stood a chance. Luke at that time may have had a greater potential in the Force than Vader had; however, Vader had many more years of honing his abilities.
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  24. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Feb 28, 2003
    It's difficult to say, since the whole point was to get Luke to turn, not to kill him. And part of getting Luke to turn, was to get him to give into his anger.

    Vader pushes the right buttons to get Luke to explode into a fit of rage, but at the same time Vader is merely trying to defend himself NOT to kill Luke. If he kills Luke, then it defeats the point of everything that Vader and Palpatine were trying to accomplish.

    Had Vader been out to kill, rather than restricted to defending (and essentially getting backed into a corner), then perhaps he could have still overwhelmed Luke. But then again, maybe not.
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  25. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 6

    Nov 12, 2012
    "Is the dark side stronger?"
    "No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

    I firmly believe Luke is pulling on the Dark Side at that particular moment. And it's the "quicker, easier" Skywalker dark side impulse that defeats Vader, also Vader being kind of not 100% there due to the good and the conflict all going on at the time.
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