Is Mara ruining the relationship between Luke and Leia?

Does it show him doubled over in pain, crying? Thinking of how he has to get to her?

It shows neither, so we do not know what happens.

Wow...Leia gets credit for something.

Leia gets credit for a lot of things. Even from Mara.

And if she's so sick and weak, how come the Solo kids could feel her pain so strongly?

Perhaps that is something to ask the force. Or perhaps she had been so in touch with the force while fighting the disease with her husband and son, that link was never severed.

Of course not, because all that mattered was Luke sucking face with Mara. And Anakin didn't spare a single thought to Leia when she was recovering from her torture. He was too busy thinking about Mara, Mara, Mara.

Are we speaking of Conquest?

Leia's kids are grown. Ben is an infant, with an insanely overprotective mother who wants to foam pad everything around him. He's going to grow up into a neurotic mess with that kind of mother, completely unable to handle distress or emotion or pain. He's also going to grow up thinking he and only he matters, what with his mother not caring when his cousin was killed, only caring about what other people's grief would do to him.

If this were true wouldn't Mara still be caring for Ben personally instead of off trying to find Zonama Sekot? Wouldn't Mara have not gone to Coruscant? Wouldn't she have not been searching out Vong spies on Calamari?

Then you saw a different cover of "Rebel Stand" than I did.

What you see as wrinkles I see as shading, but perhaps it is up to interpretation.

While Mara looks like a 19-year-old Playboy centerfold.

Again I would put that up to interpretation.

Yep. While Mara consistently looks like a young pinup, the other characters are all over the map.

Have you seen the Remnant cover? Does Mara look like a pin up there? Or do you strictly go with the Japanese covers? Should you be lumping the two sets of covers together or should you seperate them out and define each differently since they are done by different cultures.

Does it state that her wish to not know about their parents hurt their relationship?

Does it state Mara has hurt their relationship? Perhaps we should look at this a different way. Mara and Luke were together for six years and there was no sign of problems in the relationship during those six years. Perhaps we should look at what happened after those six years to define what is allegedly ruining their relationship. Perhaps the war with the Vong is to blame.

He envelopes Mara in his love when she's upset, but doesn't offer any kind of comfort to his sister when she's tortured, being too busy sucking face with Mara.

They are not even together when Leia is tortured. I dont know about you, but its tough to suck face when you are not in the same room. Secondly as soon as that begins Luke launches and goes towards the planet.

I know some of the discussion is off subject so I will try to keep it solely on topic next time.

OWLC

 

If we're going by the Japanese covers, then Leia still looks twenty-one on those covers.

I liked Leia's picture on Rebel Stand-her hair is growing back. She looks in distress, though, so THAT could be why her face is "wrinkled."

 

[image=http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0345428684.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg] <---Leia sure looks pretty to me on that cover.

 

I didn't go over the picture pixel by pixel, but I didn't notice any wrinkles. IMO, Leia barely looks older than she did in the movies. But that's just me.

 

Had Leia only just barely escaped death at that point, with Luke not even knowing that she had overcome her deadly disease (like the Solo kids had no idea at that point in Rebirth that Mara had been healed from her disease)? Isn't it that she was perfectly healthy, safe and sound, with Han at her side to support her?

And who was at Leia's side, supporting her, when she was bleeding to death? Luke was snuggling with Mara when he could have been comforting his sister through the Force.

Then Mara goes into labor, everyone cries and frets and freaks out. Mara might die! Oh no!

Leia almost dies...big deal. Leia's in pain much worse than any Mara has ever experienced...big deal.

It shows neither, so we do not know what happens.

Of course not. Because only Mara's pain ever matters.

Leia gets credit for a lot of things. Even from Mara.

Like what?

Perhaps that is something to ask the force. Or perhaps she had been so in touch with the force while fighting the disease with her husband and son, that link was never severed.

Yep. The Force, just like everything else, centers around Mara.

If this were true

If what were true?

Have you seen the Remnant cover? Does Mara look like a pin up there? Or do you strictly go with the Japanese covers? Should you be lumping the two sets of covers together or should you seperate them out and define each differently since they are done by different cultures.

Of course, her hair takes up as much space as her body, practically. And in the book, she's youthfully beautiful while Leia is gray-haired and wrinkled.

Does it state Mara has hurt their relationship? Perhaps we should look at this a different way. Mara and Luke were together for six years and there was no sign of problems in the relationship during those six years.

Except that after those six years, Luke came away not caring about Leia.

Perhaps we should look at what happened after those six years to define what is allegedly ruining their relationship. Perhaps the war with the Vong is to blame.

Really? Because Leia still cares about Luke. Leia defends Luke to Kyp, though frankly I wish she'd let Kyp tear the insensitive, arrogant jerk a new one; I'm sick of her giving and Luke not giving back. Leia cared about Luke when she was running the galaxy. Luke couldn't care less about Leia now that he's married to Mara.

They are not even together when Leia is tortured.

They are afterward, and Luke nuzzles with Mara even though Leia is hurt bad.

I dont know about you, but its tough to suck face when you are not in the same room. Secondly as soon as that begins Luke launches and goes towards the planet.

And when helpless, "uncertain in the Force" Leia (as the book thoughtfully reminded us; this among 400 pages of "Isn't Mara wonderful, beautiful, and strong?") is rescued, Luke is too busy sucking face with Mara to spare Leia more than a momentary thought.

Leia sure looks pretty to me on that cover.

Leia will always look beautiful to me, no matter how much the books try to deride her. She'll always be ten times more beautiful than Mara could ever hope to be. Unlike Mara, Leia is beautiful all the way through.

 

And who was at Leia's side, supporting her, when she was bleeding to death? Luke was snuggling with Mara when he could have been comforting his sister through the Force.

Are we talking about Balance Point (AGAIN)? Because if so, IIRC, Luke flew into combat at that moment. It's hard to snuggle and fly into combat at the same time. One cannot prove this, but it is true.

as the book thoughtfully reminded us; this among 400 pages of "Isn't Mara wonderful, beautiful, and strong?")

I don't remember that book. Maybe it was an E-book? If not, which book are we talking about? Because I don't think anyone wants to read 400 pages on how beautiful anyone is. This is probably why such a book is nonexistant.

Please keep exaggerations to a minimum in the future. Thanks.

 

And who was at Leia's side, supporting her, when she was bleeding to death? Luke was snuggling with Mara when he could have been comforting his sister through the Force.

Are you asking during her torture or in the aftermath where Luke flew escort for the Falcon or during Recovery?

Of course not. Because only Mara's pain ever matters.

If this were the case then why was Mara almost crippled by Leia's pain in BP?

Like what?

In SBS. Without you Leia none of us would even be here. And you know this because I have told it to you before.

Yep. The Force, just like everything else, centers around Mara.

The force centers around everyone.

Of course, her hair takes up as much space as her body, practically. And in the book, she's youthfully beautiful while Leia is gray-haired and wrinkled.

I didn't ask you about the book itself just the cover. In the cover she does not have the playboy looks as you call them.
But if we must, the book itself describes both women as beautiful.

Except that after those six years, Luke came away not caring about Leia.

And it says Luke does not care about his sister where?

Really? Because Leia still cares about Luke. Leia defends Luke to Kyp, though frankly I wish she'd let Kyp tear the insensitive, arrogant jerk a new one; I'm sick of her giving and Luke not giving back. Leia cared about Luke when she was running the galaxy. Luke couldn't care less about Leia now that he's married to Mara.

I just said perhaps. Perhaps its a combination of things which are allegedly ruining the relationship. I have said I never thought the relationship had any problems.

They are afterward, and Luke nuzzles with Mara even though Leia is hurt bad.

When?

And when helpless, "uncertain in the Force" Leia (as the book thoughtfully reminded us; this among 400 pages of "Isn't Mara wonderful, beautiful, and strong?") is rescued, Luke is too busy sucking face with Mara to spare Leia more than a momentary thought.

Again, when?

OWLC

 

Are you asking during her torture or in the aftermath where Luke flew escort for the Falcon or during Recovery?

Both. He chose Mara over her even though Mara didn't need him and Leia did. He was barely in "Recovery," which was kind of a relief, since all he'd have done was smooch with Mara anyway.

If this were the case then why was Mara almost crippled by Leia's pain in BP?

Because only Mara's pain matters. Leia's in pain? So what. Mara feels it and it almost cripples her? We must write about it to show how brave and strong Mara is!

In SBS. Without you Leia none of us would even be here. And you know this because I have told it to you before.

Wow! Mara paid Leia exactly one compliment! Just like she asked about her well being exactly once! What a selfless, generous woman, especially after ordering her around like a servant after the death of Leia's child, and badmouthing her behind her back...

The force centers around everyone.

More so around Mara.

I didn't ask you about the book itself just the cover. In the cover she does not have the playboy looks as you call them.
But if we must, the book itself describes both women as beautiful.

Leia is described as middle-aged. Mara is not. Leia's gray hair and wrinkles are made note of. Mara has none. So while both women are beautiful, it is evident that Mara's is still youthful.

And it says Luke does not care about his sister where?

And it says Luke does care about his sister where?

I just said perhaps. Perhaps its a combination of things which are allegedly ruining the relationship. I have said I never thought the relationship had any problems.

It didn't, before Luke married Mara.

Luke calls to Leia in ESB. She turns around and saves him. Leia calls to Luke in BP. Where is he? Curled up in the cockpit of wifey's ship, oblivious.

When?

The passage when Mara tells him the unborn kid is a boy, and they snuggle. Luke's breath is described as sweet and musky.

Again, when?

Too many incidents to count. The book is one long Luke/Mara and Mara fanfic. Tyers publicly admitted on these very boards that she could have given Han and Leia one intimate scene but she wanted to focus on Luke and Mara. Leia's ageing and gray hair are made note of, whereas Mara's complexion is more radiant and youthful than when Luke met her, and she makes her teen nephew's eyes bug out. Mara is strong and excels at everything. Leia is weak, half-trained, and uncertain in the Force, and so incompetent she can't defend herself.

Are we talking about Balance Point (AGAIN)? Because if so, IIRC, Luke flew into combat at that moment. It's hard to snuggle and fly into combat at the same time. One cannot prove this, but it is true.

Well, you'll have to ask Tyers how she managed it then, because she had Luke and Mara snuggling, for the 546th time in the book.

 

And it says Luke does care about his sister where?

And they have to spell it out in every book why? There are some things that (for most of us, anyway) do not need to be spelled out all the time.

Well, you'll have to ask Tyers how she managed it then, because she had Luke and Mara snuggling, for the 546th time in the book.

Again, exaggerations to a minimum. Unless you did indeed go through a copy of BP and count exactly how many times Luke and Mara "snuggled".

 

I don't think that Mara is wrecking Luke's relationship with Leia. You don't see Han trying to wreck their relationship, do you?

In any event, I would have to think that Leia, with all of her duties towards the New Republic, Han, and the kids, that she doesn't have the time to spend with them anyways, and I would think she would be happy that Luke has someone to be with.

 

And they have to spell it out in every book why? There are some things that (for most of us, anyway) do not need to be spelled out all the time.

Neither do I. It's clear to me that Luke doesn't care about Leia and focuses completely on Mara, and it's been that way ever since he married her. Luke has shown through his actions and his words that Mara is the center of his universe, to the exclusion of all else (except maybe Ben). He has shown that he his a poor excuse for a brother and that his values have been so messed up that he passes judgement on his sister for far less heinous things than Mara has done, but he makes excuses for Mara. He has shown that the sacrifices of his mother, his father, and Obi Wan were all for naught -- his mother gave him up, Anakin and Obi Wan died for him, all so he could end up the whipped lapdog/marionette of a former Imperial pop tart, totally uncaring about his only sister, too busy sucking face with wifey to offer Leia, who's tortured and bleeding, any kind of comfort.

 

SHELLEY: The passage when Mara tells him the unborn kid is a boy, and they snuggle. Luke's breath is described as sweet and musky.

Definitely NOT! When Mara tells Luke the child is a boy, they're not even on the same ship!!! Mara's in the Jade Shadow and Luke's in an X-wing. In fact, that's the arrangement for the whole end of BALANCE POINT. They can't be 'snuggling' because they're in two different ships, and for most of that time they're fighting coral skippers and helping Han protect slow-moving freighters. Despite the circumstances, Luke DOES ask Han about how Leia is, so he obviously DOES care for his sister.

 

Neither do I. It's clear to me that Luke doesn't care about Leia and focuses completely on Mara, and it's been that way ever since he married her.

Well, when you marry the love of your life, wouldn't you want to spend all your time with them? And in any case, you don't see Luke getting all jealous of all the attention that Leia gives Han after they get married, do you?

Luke has shown through his actions and his words that Mara is the center of his universe, to the exclusion of all else (except maybe Ben).

And that's wrong how? I mean, he has a wife and son, and wants to spend time with them.

He has shown that he his a poor excuse for a brother and that his values have been so messed up that he passes judgement on his sister for far less heinous things than Mara has done, but he makes excuses for Mara.

Example, please?

He has shown that the sacrifices of his mother, his father, and Obi Wan were all for naught -- his mother gave him up, Anakin and Obi Wan died for him, all so he could end up the whipped lapdog/marionette of a former Imperial pop tart, totally uncaring about his only sister, too busy sucking face with wifey to offer Leia, who's tortured and bleeding, any kind of comfort.

I dare you to name one example in any NJO book where Luke put Mara ahead of Leia. I DARE you!

 

Despite the circumstances, Luke DOES ask Han about how Leia is, so he obviously DOES care for his sister.

He asks how Leia is, Han says she's hurt bad, Luke shrugs and resumes schmooping with wifey.

Odd that when wifey is merely upset, he envelopes her in his love. When Leia is tortured and bleeding and experiencing pain much worse than childbirth, Luke doesn't offer her any kind of comfort. When Leia's son dies, Luke is too busy enveloping wifey in his love to try and comfort Leia. He does nothing when his wife chews Leia out and orders her around like a servant.

It's interesting that Luke criticizes Leia's mothering, but makes excuses for Mara slitting throats for Palpatine. He even tells her she was "never dark." He never brings up her past or throws her mistakes in her face, even when she's ripping into him for his mistakes. He makes her a Jedi master after 6 years even though she sniped at him for making himself one after 10 years or whatever.

When Leia was captured by the Vong, Luke chose Mara over her. He chose to hang around doing nothing, when his wife was not in danger, not ill, and said herself that she was fine, and his sister needed him. His sister called to him through the Force -- did he respond like Leia did to him in ESB? No. He's curled up in wifey's ship, oblivious.

Funny how he gets to spend gobs of time with wifey but manipulates Han and Leia into giving up some hard-earned time with each other, then shrugs and says "That's life."

 

SHELLEY: He asks how Leia is, Han says she's hurt bad, Luke shrugs and resumes schmooping with wifey.

Luke does no such thing. This scene isn't even from his point of view. It's from Mara's. Mara overhears Luke asking Han about Leia.

Just as Han is talking to Luke over the comm, he's interrupted by his other comm and he tells Luke he can't talk, that the haulers need help. Then Han, Luke, and Mara all go to the defense of the freighters. Luke doesn't shrug and he doesn't communicate with Mara or 'schmoop' with her. They're all busy saving the other ships.

It's always a good idea to get your facts straight in a debate.

 

Luke does no such thing. This scene isn't even from his point of view. It's from Mara's. Mara overhears Luke asking Han about Leia.

Of course. Everything is from Mara's viewpoint, because Mara is the center of the galaxy. We can't have a single scene of Luke comforting Leia, or Han and Leia spending time together, because that might take the focus away from Mara for a whole minute.

 

Of course. Everything is from Mara's viewpoint, because Mara is the center of the galaxy.

So the problem is that there are scenes written from Mara's POV? And the fact that some scenes are written from Mara's POV is what is allegedly "ruining the relationship between Luke and Leia"? I'm not sure I'm entirely clear on the point of this.

 

So the problem is that there are scenes written from Mara's POV? And the fact that some scenes are written from Mara POV is what is allegedly "ruining the relationship between Luke and Leia"?

Not all the time, but when Luke sees Mara's POV and seems worried that it'll affect her in any kind of way he always jumps behind her and focuses his full attention on her and her only. But if it'll have any affect on anyone else such as Leia it seems that he'll let force protect her while he over protects Mara in anyway he can.

 

Leia has wrinkles, gray streaks, and crow's feet. And other than that, I can't think of any covers she's even been on.

[face_shocked] Leia doesn't have any wrinkles on Rebel Stand!! What are you talking about?? I'm surprised!

Let's see. Leia has been on 3 NJO covers: Balance Point, Conquest and Rebel Stand. So far Mara's only been on two, and Luke and Han have been on more than any of them.

Let's see...the references to her red-gold hair (no gray), her still-radiant complexion, the fact that she's drawn as a 20-year-old pinup on various book covers, that she's never, ever described as middle-aged...meanwhile, Leia, who's younger, is described as middle-aged, her wrinkles and gray hair are pointedly referred to; she looks old on the book covers...

Who cares.

It's interesting that Luke criticizes Leia's mothering

FOR THE 4-5 TIME (for me that is): he was concerned that Anakin would feel pressured by his name, even though it symbolized the redemption of Anakin Skywalker and thus, esssentially, renewal.

The passage when Mara tells him the unborn kid is a boy, and they snuggle. Luke's breath is described as sweet and musky.

REALLY? WHERE?

That is, um, I mean, I think you are mixing that up with the part where Luke is missing Ben and acts as if Ben was with him without realizing it. I distinctly remember that Luke could almost smell the "sweet and musky" smell of Ben's breath.

 

SHELLEY, I notice that your reponse didn't acknowledge the fact that your basic premise (one that you keep repeating over and over again) is blatantly false. You had written in a recent post:

SHELLEY: The passage when Mara tells him the unborn kid is a boy, and they snuggle. Luke's breath is described as sweet and musky.

I responded with:
SKYWALKER'SSON: Definitely NOT! When Mara tells Luke the child is a boy, they're not even on the same ship!!! Mara's in the Jade Shadow and Luke's in an X-wing. In fact, that's the arrangement for the whole end of BALANCE POINT. They can't be 'snuggling' because they're in two different ships, and for most of that time they're fighting coral skippers and helping Han protect slow-moving freighters. Despite the circumstances, Luke DOES ask Han about how Leia is, so he obviously DOES care for his sister.

Then you said:
SHELLEY: He asks how Leia is, Han says she's hurt bad, Luke shrugs and resumes schmooping with wifey.

I countered that this wasn't possible because they weren't even on the same ship. Mara was on the Jade Shadow and Luke was in an X-wing.

I also reminded you that after Luke asked about his sister and Han said that she was badly hurt, Han had to respond to another comm message and told Luke he couldn't talk to him. He said that the freighters needed help.  Then Luke, Mara, and Han , all in separate ships, went to help the freighters.
Luke doesn't shrug and he doesn't communicate with Mara or 'schmoop' with her. They're all busy saving the other ships.

You dodged all of this without acknowledging that you have been wrong all along, by instead making the absurd claim that everything is from Mara's point of view, which is obviously false, especially since most of the NEW JEDI ORDER story is told from the point of view of the young Jedi. Mara probably has less point of view time of any of the major characters in this series, certainly less than Han, Luke, or Leia.

As I said, it's best to stick to the facts.

 

OK. BP is told mostly from Mara's POV, in addition to being full of "Mara is so beautiful/strong/brave" crap. Meanwhile Leia's ageing and gray hair are pointedly referred to, as well as her being "half-trained and uncertain in the Force" and her daughter smirks about her "ineptitude" (being around Mara sure rubbed off on that snot-nosed little brat); and the author publicly admitted she could have given Han and Leia some intimate scenes but chose instead to focus on Luke and Mara.

It's a fact that when Leia called to Luke through the Force, Luke was curled up in the cockpit of Mara's ship, oblivious. It's a fact that he chose Mara over Leia when Leia was tortured. Had Mara been the one who was captured, Luke would not have trusted the kids. He'd have hightailed it down there himself, and glued himself to Mara's side. But with Leia, he shrugs and chooses to do...nothing. He doesn't bother to check up on Leia when she's recovering from her torture, either. He doesn't bother to comfort her through the Force, when he "envelopes Mara in his love" when she's merely upset.

He doesn't stand up for his sister when, in SbS, his insensitive, self-absorbed wife orders her around like a servant, not caring that she's just lost her youngest child. He doesn't stand up to Mara, period, or question his decision to make her a Jedi master despite her bad temper, her lack of compassion and sensitivity, and violence-laced way of talking. When he makes a feeble attempt to reason with her, all it takes is, "You listen to me, farmboy!" before he backs down.

Sad that he's been emasculated so thoroughly by marriage to that...woman. Sad that the sacrifices of Anakin, Obi Wan, and Padme were all for naught -- that Luke ends up such a doormat, and so completely insensitive to his only sister.

 

Your best one yet, Shelley.

 

Sad that the sacrifices of Anakin, Obi Wan, and Padme were all for naught

IIRC, those sacrifices were to rid the galaxy of the Sith. I was unaware that Mara was Sith? If she is, she's a pretty crappy one.

Also, IIRC again, when Luke gets Leia's call, he is "curled up" in the cockpit of his X-wing. Unless his X-wing is in the cockpit of the Jade Sabre (or whatever her ship's called), no, he was not

curled up in the cockpit of Mara's ship, oblivious.

 

SHELLEY: He doesn't bother to check up on Leia when she's recovering from her torture, either.

Huh??? How was he supposed to do that exactly, when he was in an X-wing and she was on the Falcon? As I said, at the end of the book, they were all working to protect those freighters. When we left Luke at the end of BALANCE POINT, he was STILL in that x-wing. Kind of hard to go to check on Leia when she's recovering when he's in an X-wing. And, no, he wasn't snuggling with Mara either.

If you're referring to RECOVERY, Luke DID go to see her when she was recovering.

Don't you think you're being just a TAD unfair to Luke here, not to mention that you're exaggerating far more than a tad about Mara?

 

Huh??? How was he supposed to do that exactly, when he was in an X-wing and she was on the Falcon? As I said, at the end of the book, they were all working to protect those freighters. When we left Luke at the end of BALANCE POINT, he was STILL in that x-wing. Kind of hard to go to check on Leia when she's recovering when he's in an X-wing. And, no, he wasn't snuggling with Mara either.

He could have comforted Leia through the Force, like he regularly does with Mara. But this is the guy who, when his sister called to him through the Force, was in his wife's ship, oblivious.

If you're referring to RECOVERY, Luke DID go to see her when she was recovering.

When?

Don't you think you're being just a TAD unfair to Luke here, not to mention that you're exaggerating far more than a tad about Mara?

No, and no. Luke has behaved so abominably toward his sister throughout most of the NJO, to say nothing of his wife's atrocious, disgusting behavior, that I think I'm being too easy on them both.