PT Is Qui-gon a better teacher than Obi Wan, Yoda and Luke?

He was said to be more liberal in his views about Jedi. But you have to admit, he never had a student go to the darkside unlike Obi Wan, Yoda and Luke with Anakin, Dooku and Kyko Ren.

I mean you can teach your student all the jedi tricks you can, but morality is always the bigger issue. Or maybe Qui-gon got the luck of the draw with Obi Wan.

 

Heh. Uh oh. Well...

Yoda mentored Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan as younglings, so he has those two successes to claim.

Anakin clearly misses out - Qui-Gon is taught by Yoda and Dooku, Obi-Wan by Yoda and Qui-Gon, Luke by Obi-wan and Yoda (and LUKE himself), Anakin by Obi-Wan and PALPATINE.

"I have failed you Anakin, I have failed you. I could never teach you to think!" Think about this scripted ROTS line and look back at the mentors I just listed - who is the least free-thinking and therefore less suitable to liberate Anakin's mind? Its Kenobi. But that isn't my main point.

Yoda and Obi-Wan trained Luke through to becoming the Jedi Master.
And Yoda trained Dooku... who trained Qui-Gon... who trained Obi-Wan... so Yoda is grandfather-master to Qui-Gon, and great-grandfather-master to Obi-Wan - yet again.

But Dooku turned - Yoda failed once.
Only, Dooku trained Qui-Gon and Qui-Gon successfully trained Obi-Wan - who fails one Skywalker yet liberates the other, Luke. "I thought I could instruct him as well as master Yoda. I was wrong. My pride had terrible consequences for the galaxy. "

Anakin's fall is complex, the "hereditary" Master chain is but one aspect of his turn.

Dooku falsely claims to be stronger than Yoda in AOTC, but proves only to best Obi-Wan and Anakin in this first encounter. I think there is rich irony in his death in Ep3 - Anakin ominously killing his Master's (Obi-Wan) master's (Qui-Gon) master Dooku. And besting this previously superior duelist and "descendant" quite dismissively.

Qui-Gon shared some of Dooku's disdain for the Republic, but didnt lose sight of his initial motivations like the Sith tend to.
"Don't forget, he was once my apprentice just as you were once his."
And both Dooku and Obi-Wan trained under Yoda, it's just that Palpatine completes Dooku's and Anakin's training. Not the case for Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Luke.

Something kind of cool I noticed, Maul kills Qui-Gon (leaving Anakin and Obi-Wan master-less) and is killed by Obi-Wan, elevating Obi-Wan to Knight and mentor of Anakin.
But notice Palpatine loses Maul (apprentice) simultaneously with Anakin losing Qui-Gon (master). It's like Lucas is hinting to us that Obi-Wan isn't necessarily going to complete Anakin's training.
"We are indebted to you for your bravery Obi-Wan Kenobi. And you young Skywalker... we will watch your career with great interest!"

So to answer your question I dunno Lucas is a mad scientist lol

 

Not sure if the prequel forum is the right place, but where do you see Ahsoka and Kylo Ren in your thoughts above?

 

Well, the new canon certainly did give him an edge on that front given the deletion of this guy from anything resembling continuity!

 

That's Xanatos right?
You would think with all the Jedi that turned bad in the old continuity that the Jedi Order would have an Internal Affairs.

 

Yep!

Made the Impossible Mission Force look as if it was in complete and utter harmony didn't it?

 

About Ahsoka I am the wrong guy to ask because I only watch the films mostly. I don't think Anakin having an apprentice makes a lot of sense tbh, we hardly even saw Anakin's own Jedi training

Kylo makes things interesting, but there isn't much to clarify what went wrong with only one film out. I know I wouldn't have gone with the only known Skywalker kid going bad already. At least a Vader wannabe is a new angle. Plus the parentage/descendant-master theme seems to be going strong, with Anakin/Vader being Kylo's grandfather, and his Jedi mentor his uncle, Luke.

Kylo killing his father to solidify his bond with the dark resonates in several ways -
- Vader kills his "father" Obi-Wan for a perceived past failure on Obi-Wan's part (and interestingly at about the same time the Emperor finally permanently disolves the Senate - the galaxy would have really been doomed without Luke). Kylo claims his parents failing him is why he turned.
- Anakin also felt a pull to the light but he listens to it and saves a family member to return his own soul, unlike the killing of Han which further descends Kylo.
- Anakin also ironically has to kill a "father" in ROTJ (The Emperor), but is done out of love for his son and to free the galaxy, and he sacrifices his life in the process.
- Luke himself almost kills his father but comes back from the brink of turning and defies Palpatine - permanently. His sacrifice solidifies he and his father's place in the light.

Plus Luke had a stable, even if restrictive, upbringing before his foster parents pass and he starts his journey. Kylo claims his parents were never around and apparently Luke's mentoring wasn't enough to make up for it.

 

It just seems to me you will always have a bad guy in that chain
Yoda-

I just keep seeing the inevitable bad being produced in this long mentor-student chain
Yoda-Dooku-Qui gon-Obi Wan-Anakin
Obi Wan-Luke-kylo Ren
Luke-Rey-next villain

 

I would think that they all would be good teachers; though I have to say Yoda would probably be the best out of these. He lived for like, what, 900 years? He would be pretty experienced in the later years of his life

 

He still follows the Jedi way, like the rest of them.

Anakin and Dooku didn't fell because of Obi-Wan or Yoda's teachings. Both managed to train apprentices to Jedi Knighthood, Yoda did it more than any other Jedi.

 

But should Yoda and Obi Wan have focused more on teaching morality rather than getting their apprentices to Knighthood.

Or maybe they got bad luck having to teach Dooku and Anakin. Dooku and Anakin trained good heroes Qui-Gon and Asohka.

 

Anakin and Dooku become good Jedi and fail after that, not during the times when they were apprentices. So it means for me that is their responsability not that of their teachers.. If this is the main criterion for a good teacher Luke should be the worse as is portrayed in TFA (I dislike that because I think he has the right qualities to be a good teacher). My problem is mainly if a particular teacher is the most appropriate for a particular pupil. I think Obi Wan was an exceptional Jedi and wise teacher, still for Anakin Qui Gon was better option.

 

Who said they didn't? Since when are those mutually exclusive?

 

In terms of following the understanding the Force and its true relationship to the galaxy, then Qui-Gon. He unlocked the knowledge of immortality, even though he never fully achieved it himself.

 

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/analysis-of-yodas-arc.50039815/

This thread is relevant, I don't want to repeat.

 

Posting from the "when was it too late to save Anakin" thread on the PT forum.
Might open some discussion?

Hmm.
The way the movies are structured symbolically, to me, suggest otherwise.
- Anakin loses a Master in the same battle that Sidious loses an apprentice. Anakin almost practically slots in right at that moment. It is like it is fated that without Qui-Gon the position of Anakin's father is thrown up in the air, going to the highest bidder. And Palpatine knows how to manipulate/shape Anakin better than Obi-Wan.
- Qui-Gon (metaphorical father as Anakin has none) says to Shmi (his mother) "I will watch over him, you have my word." After Qui-Gon and Maul die Palpatine states "We are indebted to you for your bravery Obi-Wan Kenobi. And you, young Skywalker. We will watch your career with great interest!"
At the end of the trilogy, with Anakin fallen and the Jedi destroyed Obi-Wan promises about baby Luke "I will take the child and watch over him."
Notice Palpatine successfully trains Anakin to Sith "knighthood" like Obi-Wan begins Luke's successful training. But Qui-Gon dies before he can fulfill his promise. At least, not physically fulfill it; we do hear him cry out in horror during the Tusken massacre.
- Obi-Wan and Anakin are like orphaned brothers from Qui-Gon, there is always going to be some rivalry there. "Besides, my young apprentice, your senses are not that attuned yet." "And yours are?" "Possibly." I can't visualise this exchange between Anakin and Qui-Gon, or Anakin and Palpatine. There is just more of an unstated lack of objection from Anakin with Qui-Gon.
Anakin is young and impressionable in TPM, he hangs on Qui-Gon's every word. And in ROTS he thinks Palpatine carries great wisdom, he arguably respects Sidious more than Obi-Wan (for the first half of the film at least, until it becomes more a desire to overthrow him).

AOTC is a jarring contrast from TPM. The film is unique for panning up at the beginning... this isn't the exact same galaxy we saw in the last film.
Anakin's first scene in TPM? Smooth talking Padme the first time he ever sees her. Anakin's first scene in AOTC? Nervously sweating as Obi-Wan tries to relax him about reuniting with Padme after ten years.
TPM - "... another pathetic lifeform?" AOTC - "You fell into that nightmare, Master, and I rescued you, remember?"
Everything about the film seems to turn what we saw in TPM on it's head.


Note the following about Anakin's three force-mentors;
Qui-Gon teaches Anakin about selfless symbiosis with midichlorians in TPM - Anakin is confused.
Anakin and Obi-Wan never discuss midis onscreen.
Palpatine teaches Anakin about manipulating midis to control life and death - Anakin laps it up. And ultimately dooms himself in joining Palpatine almost solely for this reason.


"Your destiny lies along a different path from mine." - Obi-Wan and Luke letting go of each other.
"Your destiny lies with me, Skywalker. Obi-Wan knew this to be true." and "You're fulfilling your destiny, Anakin!" - Sith masters referencing binding to their desired protege.
Obi-Wan can't save Qui-Gon's life during the Theed duel. - He must let go of Qui-Gon.
Anakin repeatedly saves Obi-Wan's life in AOTC and ROTS. This bind is symbolically a part of his downfall.


Unlike Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon tells Anakin to use his feelings, his instincts, like Obi-Wan and Yoda repeatedly tell Luke in the OT.
I agree that Palpatine's undermining of Anakin's Jedi tutelage is the worst problem though; he tells Anakin his "patience has paid off" when we know Anakin hasn't achieved this yet. And tells Anakin he doesn't need guidance.

Obi-Wan in AOTC is the only Master we see onscreen that when teaching his sole apprentice relies on the Jedi code, and mission parameters, more than what the force asks of he and his student.
"We will do exactly as the Council has instructed." - They end up on mission to catch the assassin after all anyway.
"The mission! Get to the Chancellor, we're running out of tricks here!" - Leading towards Anakin then killing Dooku in cold-blood. Obi-Wan is not witness to the nature of this, or Anakin's ultimate turn, to me showing his influence is grounding for Anakin, but is not strong or constant enough to save his apprentice.
Mace (ROTS script): "You're mission is here, with the Chancellor." to Anakin when he wants to leave his assignment as Palpatine's representative (!) and go with Obi-Wan to Utapau.

I wouldn't call Palpatine's influence underrated, even the most staunch Anakin critic will partially agree Palpatine is mostly to blame for his turn. Palpatine's dialogue if you look closely is often multi-motivated and I don't find it surprising he masterfully ensnared Anakin.

The fateful events aspect I couldn't agree more with, but Qui-Gon is really ingrained in this as well. Qui-Gon made the mistake of taking Anakin from Shmi, but he warns Anakin of the hard life of a Jedi, Anakin is really too young to understand. I think his presence would ground Anakin... when he took Anakin he didn't consider he wouldn't be his mentor, I don't think. And it is a catch-22; without Anakin being trained as a Jedi can he fulfill the prophecy in any context?

The fateful aspect of the series is quite profound, like the chain of events leading the Naboo refugees to Tattooine, leading Qui-Gon to Anakin, and then away from him. It seems quite superstitiously foreboding.

 

Except Kuro - who seems to favor the interpretation that Anakin, right from the start of AOTC, was a vile monster, and that Palpatine can't be blamed for this.

 

Qui-Gon and Luke were the two most ideal and overall balanced Jedi in the Saga. I do not consider the weak shadow of Luke seen in The Force Unleashed as an adequate continuation to the character George Lucas set up as the true savior of the Jedi. Luke restored the Jedi Order back to its full glory, thanks to the teachings passed unto him by the lineage of great Jedi that included Qui-Gon.

 

I think you mean the Force Awakens.

Though the Luke in the Force Unleashed isn't great either, falling to the dark side over a brief bit of Falcon forcing. Then dying offscreen.

 

I would agree that Qui Gon was a far stronger teacher, than a warrior, and also stronger spiritually than physically or psychically. Which is why I believe his spirit manifested so powerfully after his death. He was also a pioneer with understanding "life" after death and the idea of projecting as a force ghost.

For me, its an extremely interesting prospect to wonder, if Qui Gon had not died, to wonder how he would have taught Anakin, and wonder if he would have been able to prevent Anakin's fall. What would have become of the galaxy had Anakin not become Vader? great idea for a "what if" novel really.

 

The point was that after becoming a Knight, the Council agreed with an idea Yoda had to give Anakin a Padawan a few months afterwards as it would help him to be more cautious and less reckless. To help even out his own internal issues. Hence Ahsoka was his Padawan and she had a positive effect on him. But then years later, that all went out the window.

 

Not necessarily one better than any other. They had different styles and different philosophies and that would have worked better for apprentices with different mind-sets and personalities. Would Qui-Gonn have been the best mentor for Anakin? Yes, probably. But that's not the same thing as being the best teacher overall (plus AOTC Obi-Wan has taken a lot of cues from Qui-Gonn in his style and philosophy anyway if you compare him to the straitlaced by-the-book TPM Obi.)

 

I think he would have been able to handle Anakin better because he wasn't as rigid as the Council, something that I think Anakin often resented. So, in that respect, I do think he was, perhaps not a better, but a more capable master.

 

I think HevyDevy killed it in his first post here.

But even without all the reason and lineage of it, I'd still say Qui-gon was probably the greatest teacher. In the end of Ep. 3, after all he was the one teaching Yoda and then in turn Obi-wan.

Qui-gon was a juggernaut of thought, and even when the entire wisdom of the Jedi Council disagreed with him, Qui-gon stuck to his guns (the will of the force) and only acted on the will of the force. Thus the greatest of the teachers.

Qui-gon was never put on the council, because (at least in my opinion) he was the least susceptible to group thought.

While I think Qui-gon is the greatest of the teachers, I think Obi-wan is the greatest of the Jedi, but that is probably an entirely different thread.

 

Sticking to your guns is great, if your guns are right. EVERYONE said that Anakin was dangerous, and fearful, and wouldn't be amenable to the ways of the Jedi, everyone save Qui-Gonn. A couple of decades later, Anakin promptly sells out to the Sith, murders preteen children and spends several years hunting down and killing Jedi. Sure he does eventually get around to finishing off Palpatine but millions are dead in the meantime, with Vader culpable or complicit for many of them.

There's being above group thought, then there's being a contrary old naysayer. If Qui-Gonn joined the Council or even debated with them as a sort of Devil's Advocate (Sith's Advocate?) he could actually have brought a few around and maybe saved it from become so hidebound and conservative. Instead he just chucks his toys out of his pram and says he's going to train Anakin anyway, sorry Obi-Wan I've got a new pupil now, have fun out there on your own kiddo.

Dying was the best possible thing for his reputation as everyone makes the logical leap that because the Council's approach failed that automatically means Qui-Gonn's would have worked but with his fate as a Maul-kebob we'll never know either way. For all we know Anakin would have fallen anyway, will of the force as Qui-Gonn would say.