PT Is Qui-Gon anyone else's favorite Jedi?

he's definitely up there for me

 

"I have failed you, Anakin. I have failed you."

 

I mostly agree with your post, but I think you missed that Qui-Gon uses the mind trick on Boss Nass regarding Jar Jar as well.

"Your gods demand that his life belongs to me." is said with another hand-wave.

It's a point-of-view truth. It is a Gungan belief, but Qui-Gon is admittedly capitalising on it.

 

Qui Gon did start Anakin off on the Jedi path by essentially telling him the Jedi Council is wrong.

 

I have said this numerous times before, but my opinion on this I believe falls in line with Seeker Of The Whills.

Obi-Wan also states in the ROTS script an extended version of the dialogue - "I have failed you Anakin, I have failed you. I could never teach you to think!"

It calls back to AOTC, in Padme's apartment when Obi-Wan lectures Anakin on his naivety regarding Palpatine - "...a politician." whom Anakin thinks is "a good man". And in ROTS when Obi-Wan requests Anakin to spy on him (an objective mistake by the Council in my opinion, I know from previous discussion that Alexrd doesn't agree on this), Anakin lashes out that Palpatine "has looked out for me ever since I arrived here". Obi-Wan's insistence Anakin "uses (his) feelings, something is out of place!" is sadly never truly absorbed by Anakin.

Obi-Wan's claim "I thought I could train him just as well as Master Yoda. I was wrong. (ROTJ script - "My pride had terrible consequences for the galaxy.")" is definitely reinforced by their portrayal in the PT.

Further on Obi-Wan's attempt to reach Anakin, notice his wording when lightly scolding Anakin outside the Coruscant nightclub - "Patience. Use the force. Think."
Breaking down each part for arguments sake;
"Patience!" - However, he says to Yoda regarding Luke in ESB - "He will learn patience." It seems he is letting Luke make his own mistakes on the path to gaining ultimate wisdom.
"Use the force!" - While the same line he will eventually give Anakin's son (to make the DS reactor-shaft shot in ANH), Luke was a new student. This advice seems less appropriate for a ten-year apprentice.
"Think!" - What Obi-Wan himself claims he was never able to teach Anakin to do. In my opinion there is contrasting relevance in Qui-Gon teaching Anakin "Feel, don't think" and also Obi-Wan telling Luke "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them!" where Obi-Wan in the PT seems more preoccupied with thought. To me, anyway.

I think the contrast in Obi-Wan's teaching in the PT - to Obi-Wan's guidance from Qui-Gon and additionally Anakin's brief time under Qui-Gon's tutelage - is done on purpose.
Qui-Gon encourages Obi-Wan and claims to the Jedi Council that Obi-Wan is ready for knighthood, basically the opposite of Obi-Wan's mentoring in AOTC.
Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's last fight together, facing Maul, they seem to confront Maul - master and apprentice - as equals. Which is subverted in the next film by Obi-Wan telling Anakin to attack Dooku with him in unison, but Anakin ignores him, charges Dooku, and is electrocuted.
There is a schism there with Anakin and Obi-Wan I can't see in any other Master/Apprentice relationship in the series.



Finally, a very important scene that I think is overlooked by critics is Qui-Gon trying to teach Anakin about midi-chlorians.

"Your focus determines your reality. Stay close to me and you'll be safe." - Crucial advice, for a prominent example look at what Anakin is focusing on and perceiving as he spirals in ROTS. Also "stay close" while literally referring to Qui-Gon as Anakin's guardian, can be a metaphor for staying true to Qui-Gon's path.

Qui-Gon mentions the symbiosis between life and the force, a theme that has several repercussions in other ways... creatures such as the Naboo-core water creatures living of each other for food and inadvertently helping their Bongo escape being eaten... the Naboo and the Gungans working together to preserve their existence... Anakin and Padme's arguably symbiotic relationship in ROTS... the balance between light and dark over the saga (and dare I say it the push-pull of inter-trilogy mirroring)... and Qui-Gon's initial point that without life there is no force, without the force there is no life.

The main relevance here I guess is that Qui-Gon insists "When you learn to quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you." Something that is not again advised by anyone in the trilogy, off-the-top of my head.
Anakin states confusedly "I don't understand." Qui-Gon: "With time and training, you will Anakin, you will."
I think the scene is something particularly profound that Anakin tragically never truly does learn.

 

No, he was an a-hole. When he met Watto he knew nothing about him. He was just one trader among many. Watto told him that credits were no good to him, yet QG still attempted to trick Watto into taking useless credits in exchange for the parts. Thereby cheating a trader & leaving him with nothing of value in return. Earlier he tricked Boss Nass into giving him a ship. Back on Tatooine he lied all throughout his dealings with Watto. Almost everything he said was a lie in those negotiations. He even wagered things that didn't belong to him, like Anakin's pod & the Queen's ship! He lied to Anakin about why he needed his blood sample. He neglected to tell him or Shmi crucial details about becoming a Jedi. Particularly forgoing all attachment, including to his mother. I could go on & on. Suffice to say QG was quite a terrible Jedi IMO.

 

^^^

Any wonder Dooku said he could use QGJ's counsel in AOTC

 

I didn't remember that handwave. There was a long enough pause between the statement and "Begone with him" that it looked like Nass was thinking it over, not being befuddled.

 

The hand wave is obvious as.

Take another look @ the scene.

 

I suppose Obi-Wan was a terrible Jedi for lying to Luke about his Father all the time then too?

Obi-Wan also lied, those poor stormtroopers at Mos Eisley would've been successful in capturing the droids, but that devilish Obi-Wan ruined their chances of getting ahead in the Imperial bureaucracy.

All Qui-Gon did was ask Boss Nass to grant them passage to save the entire planet in the long run, by saving Padme from Theed. He als, despite the time pressures, saved and innocent person's life in Jar-Jar for no reason other than not wanting to see him punished.

And Watto's a slave owner, and the Jedi desperately need to get the Queen off the planet (had they spent more than another day Maul would've tracked them down too soon).

Yes he was risky with his bets, but that was because he was interested in freeing a slave! Sure, it was for other reasons than just freeing them, he clearly wanted Anakin for his potential, (though Qui-Gon is clearly sad that Shmi couldn't be liberated), but that's still the only reason he gambled.

It wasn't like Qui-Gon was bullying a small, innocent business. He was doing what he had to do to save Naboo, and rescued a slave along the way.

So calling Qui-Gon terrible for what he did is just overblown hyperbole.

 

Terrible attempt at a comparison. Luke had grown up without his parents. He believed his father was a good man. All Ben did was shield him from the cruel & awful truth that his father is alive & is an evil mass-murdering psychopath. It's a compassionate lie. His only other deception was a mind trick on a couple of enemy troops. Troops who just a bit earlier killed Luke's aunt & uncle! Qui-Gon on the other hand lied about a dozen times, on some occasions just to scam his way to an advantage.

When Qui-Gon tried to cheat Watto into taking useless credits for the parts he didn't know he owned slaves. Watto was just a trader he bumped into. He also didn't know about Maul throughout the whole Tatooine sequence of events. So neither provide an excuse. Qui-Gon comes off as a compulsive liar & scam artist. If you look at his dialogue he constantly lies. He also rigs a dice roll. He offers up Anakin's pod & the Queen's ship as a wager, pretending they belong to him. If he'd lost the bet he couldn't even deliver that ship to Watto. He takes blood from a 9 year old without asking his parent for permission, & as usual lies about why he needs it. The guy's a ****.

 

If you want to get technical, the whole mind trick thing is hardly a "light side" trait when you get right down to it.

Also, QGJ should have just met the Trade Federation Senator
QGJ: You have no beef with the Naboo
Lott Dodd: We have no beef with the Naboo.
QGJ: Time to squash any perceived beef
Lott Dodd: Squashing some beef
QGJ: The Trade Federation will admit guilt, leave Naboo and answer any questions an investigation will ask of it.
Lott Dodd: Only if there's beef. I'm hungry.

 

Qui-Gon didn't "take blood from Anakin without permission" - he cleaned up one of Anakin's scratches, and then took a sample of the blood that had spilled from the scratch (TPM novel). Telling the truth "check for infection" but not the whole truth "also check midichlorian count".

When the lives of the population of Naboo are in danger from the continuing occupation - the need to get to Coruscant becomes very high. The less time delayed, the more lives saved, potentially.

A few lies, to save lives, are not all that morally problematic. The Queen felt the same way. Thus, as Padme, she doesn't try revealing her identity to Qui-Gon and saying "you can't stake my ship". From her perspective, staking the ship is a reasonable thing to do.

As for Mind Tricks - the recurring theme is that the mind-tricked person responds to, effectively repeating, the last thing the mindtricker says:

"We can go about our business"
"You can go about your business"

"You will take me to Jabba now"
"I will take you to Jabba now"

"Speed us on our way"
"Wesa speed you far away"

"And you'll drop your weapon"
"And I'll drop my weapon"


But not


"Your gods demand his life belongs to me"
"Mysa gods demand his life belongs to yousa"

Instead, Nass gets confirmation:


Nass: "Binks! Yousa haven life debt with thisn outlander?!"
Jar Jar: "Mmm-hmm"

 

He didn't check for infection. It was another lie. Not a major one, but it gets added to the long list.

So naturally you'd enter into a convoluted & time-consuming plan where you place a bunch of bets on a kid in a pod race & hope it all works out. Instead of just looking for another trader who has the required parts, either in Mos Espa or one of the other Tatooine spaceports. Since QG was happy to swindle traders by using mind tricks, that would be an effective plan.

Padme wasn't there when Qui-Gon put the ship up as collateral. The fact remains that if QG had lost the bet he wouldn't be able to provide Watto with a ship he did not own. Don't get me wrong, his methods are effective. They're just quite dodgy. He's the way someone like Han or Lando would be if they became Jedi. Scamming people & getting results by cheating. Very un-Jedi like.

 

When he fails to make the deal with Watto, he did have to reconsider his plan: "I'm sure another opportunity will present itself." It is only because Anakin offers to help them, and because he learns that Anakin is a slave and possibly the Chosen One that he decides to gamble with Watto. The point is, he's operating outside the Jedi Code to follow the Will of the Force.

 

She was there when Anakin offered to run the race, and when Shmi was talked into letting him do it. The initial deal was "My ship will be the entry fee" - so, it stretches credibility that she would not have accepted that the ship was a tool to be staked, the previous night. If Padme had refused to hand the ship over should the race be lost, Watto would have turned up with hired thugs - and she's smart enough to know this.

Watto had already said he was the only one in the area who had the hyperdrive generator appropriate to that ship class. I would guess that Qui-Gon can read the certainty in his voice, and is prepared to take his word for it.

 

You're missing the point. We're talking about Qui-Gon's (lack of) ethics. He didn't know that Padme was the queen. He dishonestly pretends the ship is his to Watto & gambles with it. Knowing that the Naboo might tell him to go to hell if he loses, which cheats Watto out of being paid. A lowly handmaiden being nearby is irrelevant. He also rigged the dice roll using the Force. The guy's a no-good cheat. Watto got out-swindled by a better swindler.

So, Watto is the first & only trader he asks, yet he's going to take his word that conveniently, he's the only one who has the required parts. Which conveniently means he will get the sale . QG must also figure that Watto's dubious claim holds for all of Mos Espa & every spaceport on the whole planet! Guess Watto has a trustworthy face.

No, he operates outside of the code before he finds Anakin & starts believing in Chosen Ones. When he tries to swindle a trader into taking credits that are of no value to him, to acquire valuable parts that the trader owns. That's essentially stealing.

 

I thought his smirk during her big reveal was to let the viewer know he knew all along. Been a long time since I read the novel, but I think it goes into even more detail that QGJ was just letting Padme keep her secret to the others.

 

Nah. It was more "well played you sneaky yet clever queen".

 

So QGJ deceived a deceiver. Don't agree, but that still doesn't work out for the thesis of him taking advantage of the innocent queen.

 

The credits are only of no value to Watto because Watto, for some mysterious reason, is not prepared to put the effort into dealing with people who deal with the Republic, and who would value the credits. When Watto says "credits are no good out here" this is a considerable exaggeration.

He's acting on behalf of the group as a whole. Without a hyperdrive, the ship is useless to them for getting to Coruscant. Thus, gambling it, with the successful result of the gamble being "keep the ship and gain a hyperdrive for it" is a legitimate option.

 

The fact that Watto is the only one with a hyperdrive is a simple narrative concession to simplify the plot. The film would not be improved by multiple scenes of Qui and co visiting every shop in Mos Espa, just to check for the right parts.

Besides, the interest in Watto's shop is also partially motivated by Qui-Gon's desire to know more about Anakin, especially after learning about his mysterious origins and taking the Midi count.

 

Didn't say he took advantage of her. He did put her ship up for wager without permission though. Presumably if he'd lost the bet he would've screwed over Watto (again) rather than take the queen's ship.

His shop, his parts, his rules. QG tried to scam him, & that's before he knew anything about him.

Yeah of course, that's all completely apparent. Yet there are all kinds of different ways to depict that. Preferably without having noble Jedi come off as disreputable scammers.

 

Exactly how would Qui-Gon have stopped Watto from taking the ship? Flown to another planet? They can't - busted hyperdrive, remember?

Flown elsewhere on the planet, tried to hide the ship, then tried to get a new hyperdrive some other way? Possibly - but on a Hutt planet, one would expect debt collection to be an important thing.

Hence Qui-Gon's "Perhaps you'd like to take it up with the Hutts" when Watto tries to refuse to hand over Anakin.

Watto would have done exactly the same thing - gone to the Hutts over "non-payment of debt" if either Qui-Gon or the Queen had refused to hand the ship over.

 

Watto probably just doesn't want to deal with the cost of currency exchange on Tatooine. The planet's run by the Hutts, so who knows what sort of extortive practices they engage in when it comes to such things. As for Qui-Gon, exchanging huge sums of Republic credits at a Hutt-run currency exchange is probably not something he'd want to do if he's remotely interested in keeping a low profile (if he'd even be able to afford it with the cash he has on hand).

Of course I'm sure the critics would have preferred that Lucas include several lines of dialogue delving into the minutiae of currency exchange practices on Tatooine, rather than simply having Watto state that Republic credits are no good to him and leaving it at that. I doubt they would have ever used the inclusion of such dialogue as the subject of relentless derision and ridicule.