Saga Is "Star Wars logic" a legit excuse?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth Xalfrea, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. Darth Xalfrea Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2013
    star 4
    If there's one thing that people love to pick at for Star Wars, whether they be in the the originals or the prequels, it's those little lapses of logic that make you wonder why they don't do this or don't do that, etc.

    Some of the best/worst I've seen:

    Restaurants ban droids yet droids serve food
    Ill-equipped droids brought on missions where they're useless
    A handmaiden ordering her queen around
    Owen not recognizing C-3PO
    Fighting religious monks
    mystical energy that "surrounds all living things" does not equal a galaxy full of Jedi
    army of clones and implication of human rights
    where did all the aliens go in-between the movies?
    teddy bears that defeat a powerful empire
    arms can be repaired, yet legs can't?


    Do we blame Star Wars, and by extension big bad Lucas himself, for these? Or do we just handweave "Star Wars logic; it's a fantasy movie, nothing needs to be explained"?
  2. bstnsx704 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3
    Restaurants ban droids yet droids serve food: Droids are property and do their master's bidding. Depending on the owner's treatment of his/her droids, the droids could be considered slaves. A slaveowner would surely force his/her slave to serve food in his/her establishment, and would not allow slaves to be customers.
    Ill-equipped droids brought on missions where they're useless: Any particular examples of this? All I can really think of is C-3PO, but he was a friend and companion of the characters and thus accompanied them on their missions.
    A handmaiden ordering her queen around: The handmaiden was playing the role of the queen; if she didn't give orders she wouldn't be playing that part. The real queen was fully aware of the situation and probably talked to the handmaiden privately beforehand to make sure the handmaiden was doing things as she would.
    Owen not recognizing C-3PO: C-3PO looked very different in AotC and ANH and never told Owen his number. It'd make less sense if Owen did recognize him.
    Fighting religious monks: The Jedi don't like to fight but do what they have to in order to preserve peace. Also, while their 'religion' is inspired by Earth religions and philosophies, it is not exactly trying to replicate any of them. It doesn't have to be anything at all like what we find on Earth.
    mystical energy that "surrounds all living things" does not equal a galaxy full of Jedi: I don't even know what you're trying to say here...
    army of clones and implication of human rights: I'm sure that there were plenty of issues regarding the ethics of a clone army, but they were not directly relevant to the plot and thus were not focused on.
    where did all the aliens go in-between the movies? There were plenty of aliens on Tatooine in ANH and RotJ, and a few on Cloud City in TESB. And obviously on Endor in RotJ. Aside from that, the original films primarily featured 'uncivilized' planets such as Hoth and Dagobah where there was no intelligent life to be found (not counting Yoda, as he is not native to Dagobah). The alien races we saw in the prequels were all either pushed outward by the Empire or were still on Naboo, Coruscant, Genosis, Kamino, Utupah, Mustafar, etc.
    teddy bears that defeat a powerful empire: The Ewoks did not defeat the entire Empire, Vader did that when he killed the Emperor. The Ewoks merely assisted the Rebel soldiers in killing the Stormtroopers on Endor.
    arms can be repaired, yet legs can't? If you're referring to Darth Vader, his legs were very obviously replaced. You can even see them when he is on the operating table at the end of RotS. The full body suit that he wore had more to do with the damage done do his lungs than it did his lack of legs.
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  3. The Supreme Chancellor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    These points are pretty dumb. You basically tried to sum up plot points in a fictional fantasy film series and are trying to compare them to real life?

    Logic from almost every movie ever doesn't equate with real life, that's why it's fictional entertainment.
  4. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    Is there a difference here between "Star Wars"-logic and not-getting-it/don't-want-to-use-my-brain-logic?

    Life is full of change and contradiction. And art is allegorical.

    You might as well start complaining about the 20th Century Fox logo -- "Waa! It's not the 20th Century anymore!" -- and work your way from there.

    "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...." Yet it's got HUMANS .... SPEAKING ENGLISH!

    SOUND IN SPACE.

    SHIPS WITH GRAVITY.

    SPACESHIPS!

    MEN IN WHITE PLASTIC.

    MEN IN WHITE PLASTIC NOT BEING ABLE TO HIT ANYTHING.

    CYBORGS WITH CAPES.

    A PLANET-KILLING BATTLE STATION WITH A DOOMSDAY MEGA LASER.

    A TRASH CAN ROBOT.

    A HUMANOID ROBOT THAT CAN'T WALK PROPERLY.

    ROBOTS GETTING OIL BATHS.

    But never forget....

    HUMANS .... SPEAKING ENGLISH.

    To understand it better, first realize that you're watching space opera.

    Then look at other art.

    Study history.

    Read.

    Watch human beings for five minutes in every-day life.

    Take a nature walk.

    Attempt to school yourself in quantum mechanics and astrophysics.

    Ingest hallucinogens.

    Meditate.

    Pretend that politics makes sense.

    Realize that life is bizarre.

    Rinse, wash, repeat. Try not to die.
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  5. Seagoat PT Trivia Tournament Game Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    Hoth and the exogorth asteroid having Terrestrial gravity.

    Try using the Force to explain that away.
    Last edited by Seagoat, Mar 24, 2013
  6. anakin_skywalker_sct Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2001
    star 5
    While these points are a bit silly and for the most part have ready explanations, that's a needlessly aggressive and insulting response. Just because somebody wonders why droids aren't allowed in bars but might be used to serve in bars doesn't mean they're a complete moron who has no idea what art is and might kill themselves trying to tie their shoelaces. Get a grip.
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  7. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Falcon projects its own artificial gravity.

    And we don't know how big or dense Hoth is exactly.
  8. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    Eh? It's just a goofy response to teh original goofy. I think it was worth it just to hear your amusing "shoelace" jibe. [face_peace]
  9. Seagoat PT Trivia Tournament Game Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    How does the Falcon project gravity? This would require something rather massive spinning at quite a high rate.

    And I believe Hoth's size was revealed in some "Essential Guide to Planets" or something. Not to mention that, like a lot of real life OCOs, seeing as it's made of mostly ice, it would have very little gravity, probably not even half of Earth's. (Yeah, I'm an astronomy geek)
  10. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    The same way as any other SW ship has artificial gravity aboard- applied phlebotinum.

    Is it made of mostly ice- or is it dense rock and metal with a (relatively) thin ice coating?

    Apparently its diameter is 7200 km, but its gravity is 1.1x normal.
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  11. Seagoat PT Trivia Tournament Game Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    Hm... Pluto style. I suppose you're right, we never were told its composition.

    Though it still does not explain the asteroid that the space slug was on. Logically, Han, Leia, and Chewie should have been freezing to death, imploding in the vacuum, and floating all over the place.
  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Yup- the slug's mouth was open- it shouldn't have held in an atmosphere of its own. Falcon would need to be projecting a force field around the ship, a few metres out.

    While Hoth might be feasible, the Forest Moon of Endor skirts the limits- being a mere 4900 km diameter. Earth's diameter is 12756 km (equatorial).

    Forest Moon's diameter (and radius) is 0.384 x that of Earth.
    Using the simple formula for surface gravity here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_gravity
    a planet with a radius 0.384 x that of Earth (Forest Moon) with a surface gravity 85% of Earth's, would be 12.5% of Earth's mass, and 2.2 x as dense as Earth.

    A pure iron ball that size might manage a gravity less than Earth's, but not low enough to make it lose most of its atmosphere or make it hard to walk on normally.

    However, anything smaller (Iego, Planet of 1000 Moons, in TCW, springs to mind at 2730 km) would have to be made up largely of exotic metals.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Mar 24, 2013
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  13. Jcuk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    Well, I maybe wrong but fantasy films do need some sort of grounding in logic and for things to make sense so you can suspend your disbelief at the fantastical elements of what it is your watching. If on a certain level of understanding it didnt make sense then you become lost and it becomes a mess. It's fantasy of course and you know that, but the grounding has to be there.
  14. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    Well, I can agree with that, and I wasn't trying to be obtuse before. There's a serious point to be had here. The "documentary" aesthetic of the movies is one of the key design features that draws me in; and draws me back. In isolation, a feature like that might imply that things should be kept and comprehensible at all times -- but then you don't have art. And I don't see a problem with those listed aspects, which can, in my opinion, be dismissed as false dichotomies, strawmen, excluded variables, etc., in the manner they've been presented. The more underlying message in my earlier post -- which seems to have been missed -- is that these crude complaints disappear when one dips even just slightly into history, politics, philosophy, science, etc. Star Wars is also abundant with irony, so I tend to celebrate unusual or improbable plot developments and design features as part of the charm and potency of the telling.
  15. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    All movies are judged in part by their internal logic. This is not unique to Star Wars. The writing matters. A movie doesn't have to conform to the real world, but it should maintain it's own consistent internal logic.

    The Star Wars movies have trouble there
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 24, 2013
  16. Jcuk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    One to add to list is,
    Using a force power once when it was convenient, but later in the film it's Blatantly obvious they should use it again, but they don't so someone can die. Or maybe that's just poor writing (shrug) :)
  17. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
  18. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    Do we really know that restaurants do that in the PT? In the OT, I figured that it was animosity towards droids held over since the Clone Wars.

    Not everyone can be Artoo, I guess.

    Part and parcel of having a handmaiden disguise herself as the queen as a decoy in case of assasination attempts. Anything to keep up the illusion.

    Well, to be fair, he wasn't gold last time he saw him.

    Knights Templar, Shaolin Monks.

    I've never heard this one, myself. Did people expect there'd only be a dozen Jedi, or so?

    I do wish that this were explored more in the films, because it's a great hint of the same kind of heady sci-fi that Lucas did in THX 1138, and inspired others to do in Alien and Blade Runner. As it stands, though, I think the weirdness of it speaks for itself.

    Waiting for another Special Edition casting call, I'd imagine. I hear Greedo has quite the headshot.

    Homefield advantage, I guess.

    What, Owen's dad, I guess? Well... I suppose it's hard to get mechanical limbs when you're dirt poor.

    Like I and others here are doing, I think it's pretty easy for casual viewers to come up with a comfy answer for any of these things. And the ones that can't be explained by strict in-universe canon logic, it's not a big deal. It needn't be "Star Wars logic" or even "fantasy logic"-- just "movie logic".
    Last edited by Jedi_Ford_Prefect, Mar 24, 2013
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  19. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    I'm not sure what power you're refering to here either, but even so, it wouldn't be unique to Star Wars. I've yet to hear a plausible explanation for why Gandalf didn't just summon his big-ass falcon buddies to fly across Middle Earth and drop the One Ring into Mount Doom instead of sending a small band to travel by foot. I also never heard an explanation for why Hugo Weaving didn't just spare everyone a thousand years of trouble and just push the king into the fire when he refused to destroy the Ring after Sauron was beaten. Or what makes the Ring so damned powerful in the first place. Some things just are what they are.
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  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Usual one is "eagles are not a taxi service." Apart from anything else, Sauron would have seen them.
  21. Jcuk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    The power I was talking about was the one where Qui Gon and Obi Wan escape the destroyer droids by running really quickly. Then in the end battle with him Qui Gonn and Maul, the force fields in the power generator are on a timer and him and Qui Gonn are separated. Why not just use that power to get to Qui Gonn when the fields open and Qui Gonn resumes the battle with Maul? Like I said (shrug)
  22. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I've always wondered why when Luke fought Vader, either time, why he didn't just use the force to turn all those switches on Vader's chest on and off
    VMeran likes this.
  23. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    Cos Vader would just turn them on or off again? And if Luke kept doing it, their duels might resemble a game of Connect 4 or Whac-A-Mole.
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  24. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    You make him deal with that, and then you chop his head off. You only need a fraction of a second of distraction to strike

    Obviously, this is an in universe question. We all know the story requires that Luke does not kill VAder. But the question of the use of force powers came up, that was just one I always pondered.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 24, 2013
  25. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    Well, it depends on how geriatric you consider Vader to be. His chest plate doesn't even light up in ANH. I think he can do fine if a few nobs are twiddled for a while.

    Moreover, do you think Luke actually has that much precision with the Force? He is often shown to be clumsy with it and only just beginning to discover his power.

    I've never seen Luke as this tightly-coiled snake just waiting for his moment to strike. Not only, then, would mucking about with Vader's chest plate -- I can't believe we're discussing this :p -- be out of character, but I don't think he could even have capitalized on it in any meaningful way.

    Fair enough. We all have our own way of seeing things; and our own bugbears that emerge from that.
    Last edited by Cryogenic, Mar 24, 2013