Saga Is Star Wars morality too black and white?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Polydroxol, May 28, 2014.

  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Dooku didn't leave because the Jedi were wrong, per say. He left because he was seduced by the dark side of the Force and agreed with Palpatine's views for a new order. He was evil the minute he pledged himself to Palpatine's teachings and methods. Especially if he did kill Sifo-Dyas, a fellow Jedi Knight. To betray everything that you once believed in and side with evil by committing acts of evil, then you become evil.
  2. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Nope - people see Dooku as "dark" because he is Darth Tyranus - Darth Sidious's apprentice and co-conspirator - the man who hires Jango.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, May 30, 2014
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  3. thejeditraitor Chosen One

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    dooku is dark and evil but not as evil as sidious. evil with a hint of good still left in there, like anakin.
    Last edited by thejeditraitor, May 30, 2014
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  4. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    It's not quite so obvious as the eye-roll would imply. It MAY be accurate to say that 'according to George Lucas, and in relation to Star Wars, all things dark are evil.' But that isn't necessarily how every philosophy views it. And I'm unsure if it's even how GL himself views it, given how he has sometimes mentioned 'balance' between the light and the dark.
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  5. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

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    Sinister: For some. For me and perhaps others Dooku did leave because the Jedi were wrong. Noble intentions get off track all the time, I believe that's what happened with Dooku. I don't buy into the seduction nonsense.
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  6. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    I prefer black and white with shades of grey myself. Both are needed. All grey isn't as fun to me.
    Anyway I still don't understand how Dooku could have joined Palpatine. Palpatine's apprentice killed Qui-Gon for crying out loud!
  7. CommanderDrenn Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 19, 2013
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    In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with some "black and white morality" as long as it doesn't define the characters. It never "works" for me when "bad guys'" motivation is just because they're evil.

    And also, please, authors/script writers, don't tell me they're evil, or let their morality reflect on their level of competency. (He failed there because he was too arrogant. That is the single best way to make me bored with a series.)
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  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Balance between the light and the dark is not the same as kill everyone you care for and force oppression on others. There's a reason for it being dark. But in DRush's case, he's started referring to it with racist overtones.

    Dooku quit the Jedi Order after he became Darth Tyranus. Not before. He believed the Jedi were wrong, but for the wrong reasons. Namely in serving a Republic rather than ruling it, which all Sith Lords believe in. And yes, he was seduced. Palpatine offered him power to fix the Republic and Dooku got down on one knee the same way Anakin did and pledged himself to the teachings of the dark side.

    And he would use Palpatine until he got what he wanted, which is a new Apprentice to overthrow Palpatine.
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  9. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    If THAT won't convince Cushing's Admirer, then NOTHING will......

    Well, if his 'seduction' or turn was anything like Anakin's - which you allude to above - then no wonder Cushing's Admirer (and myself) don't buy it.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Jun 1, 2014
  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Why is that hard to believe? Palpatine is the devil with a silver forked tongue. He knows how to goad Jedi into doing what he wants them to do by playing upon their passions and prejudices.
  11. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    More accurately, he's only able to do this with TWO Jedi, and for reasons/explanations that don't seem to go beyond plot demands.

    Edit - in light of darth-sinster's subsequent post (#37):

    I amend the above to say that he was successful in having two Jedi turn to the dark side , though he was able to 'manipulate' the Jedi at large (without turning them).
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Jun 1, 2014
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    He turns two of them because he needs them to get the job done. One to lead the war and one to be his Apprentice for all time. The other Jedi, he just manipulated them into fighting in a war that they were against and then manipulated them into coming after him, so that he could justify mass genocide. He doesn't turn others to his cause because that was why the Sith were beaten in the first place.


    The Sith are the natural enemy of the Jedi. As George Lucas describes it, the Sith were once in control of the galaxy 1000 years in the past. Unfortunately, the Sith's hunger for conquest got the better of them-so many Sith lords were vying for ultimate control that it led to infighting among their ranks. Such internecine struggles were exploited by the Jedi Knights of the era, and they were able to turn the tide and defeat the Sith.

    --Star Wars Insider, issue 78; page 60

    "One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the Dark Side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

    --George Lucas, Bill Moyers Time Magazine Interview; 1999.
  13. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    I know, that was my point. Dark and light, shadow and light, are complimentary. Good and evil, not so much. Lucas sometimes describes the dark side as evil, but also sometimes in less morality-tinged terms, and because of that it can be hard to tell exactly what it's supposed to be.

    Your interpretation of that is far more sure than mine would be. For example, I took it to simply be referring to a yin-yang kind of model; my understanding is that the dark there is not 'evil,' and the light is not 'good.' They are pairs of opposites that are complimentary, not the kind that are locked in struggles to eliminate the other.

    Let's not assume the worst in every statement/post, shall we?
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Jun 1, 2014
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  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    There's been kind of a pattern to his complaints about the whole "dark side" thing though- for example:

    I can see why @darth-sinister might have thought that this was another example.
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Indeed. Maybe I am assuming the worst, but then, it is something that stands out.
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  16. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Ah, that's a fair point. I hadn't seen/noticed that other post. Personally, I think the notion that it's problematic that 'dark' often = 'evil' in Western media could be a valid discussion topic (though whether it's strictly on-topic in this thread is perhaps another matter). But let's just be careful to not let things devolve into sniping at one another, or worse, into calling each other racists.

    sinister, DRush, everyone else: Please excuse my blundering attempts to keep the Saga boat from tipping. Just trying to ensure smooth sailing.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Jun 1, 2014
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  17. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    The Jedi certainly see the Dark Side, and Evil, as connected:

    ("Is the dark side stronger?") "No, no, no ... Quicker, easier, more seductive."
    "If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil"
    "That cave ... is strong with the dark side of the Force. A domain of evil it is."
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  18. Kato Sai Jedi Grand Master

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    I think the Jedi see the Dark Side as evil because it motivates It's practitioners to cause harm to others and inflate self. I doubt any Jedi have seen Dark Siders wielding their powers to protect the weak or to help those in need. Instead, they see the Sith slaying the weak and stepping on the needy who get in the way of their path to power.
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  19. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    Where's the fun in that? :p;)
  20. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

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    Yet, they preclude it as impossible. That's not sound. The Jedi's views are unhealthily narrow.
  21. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    But it makes for better drama....
  22. Kato Sai Jedi Grand Master

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    Good advice Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn. :)
  23. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

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    For some. I don't see a forced war as better drama.

    IL: Again, that's the reason for some, not all.
    Last edited by Cushing's Admirer, Jun 2, 2014
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  24. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
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    Actually, the so-called "Light Side" does the same - causes harm to others and inflate the self. There is a reason behind the phrase - "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions". And the Jedi were great examples of this.
    Last edited by DRush76, Jun 2, 2014
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  25. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    True. I was being sarcastic..I am "COL. Basher", after all. ;):D
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