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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Is TFA the real problem for TLJ?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Giando74, Dec 18, 2017.

  1. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013
    There seems to be a time discrepancy in the film. Rey seems like she's been on Ahch-to for many weeks or even months, while the space chase actually only lasts 18 hrs, and she's clearly been there longer than that. So, something is wrong there. So, my interpretation is that Rey has been trained longer than that simply because it doesn't make any sense that all of that happened in a day.
     
  2. artooo

    artooo Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2012
    I feel like you could take the first half of Force Awakens(up to the point they meet Maz, after that it goes downhill) and the 2nd half of The Last Jedi(and all of the Luke/Rey stuff) and make a really good movie.

    They are both subpar to me as whole films with the 2nd half of Force Awakens and 1st half of Last Jedi being the far weaker halves.
     
  3. artooo

    artooo Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2012
    Honestly...one thing I don't get.

    A lot of the criticisms of Last Jedi also apply to Force Awakens imo..
     
    Alpha Spook likes this.
  4. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    So sorta Nolan Bateman all over again[face_laugh]

    I have thought about that. Even if that is the case, I'm not sure I can accept the things she says or even does to substantially affect the film in a significant way. Being on the planet then fighting multiple groups of enemies without proper training seems to be reaching(TFA was at fault for bringing Rey up like this).

    I'll have to see the film again to catch that..Movie was so fast.
     
    Darth Nerdling likes this.
  5. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    So sorta Nolan Bateman all over again[face_laugh]

    I have thought about that. Even if that is the case, I'm not sure I can accept the things she says or even does to substantially affect the film in a significant way. Being on the planet then fighting multiple groups of enemies without proper training seems to be reaching(TFA was at fault for bringing Rey up like this).

    I'll have to see the film again to catch that..Movie was so fast.
     
  6. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    If I could comment on the "mystery boxes of TFA --> anti-climaxes of TLJ" thing between Abrams and Johnson...

    I've been stewing over TLJ for a few days. And I've kind of come to the conclusion that there's nothing wrong with subverting expectation and going for dramatically resonant anti-climaxes, which Johnson was going for... But only to a certain extent.

    As much as I still have issues with Luke's story concept, Johnson executed his ideas very well. It's arguably the dramatic core of the film, the aspect most competently executed. I think I'll eventually be okay with it, though not necessarily laud it, because Johnson was going for a strong character conflict and Hamill delivered. Still... The core controversy means that the move is risky, and will always be on shaky ground with at least *some* people.

    Rey's reveal, while largely the opposite of what I wanted, still had a lot of time and effort put into it. I'm of the opinion, however, that if the answer was Rey It Doesn't Matter, than some of her scenes focusing on that Identity search should have been devoted to better explaining how she matches Kylo. Either more training scenes, or more exploration of Luke and hers discussion on how the Jedi would need to change their view of the Force, or more time spent fleshing out why exactly she has such faith that the guy who slew her father friend, mind-probed her, and then nearly killed her friend, could turn to the light side so quickly. Still, Johnson at least tried to wring out what he saw as the emotional payoff of the story.

    But now we're juggling *two* deflated mystery boxes...

    Snoke is the one where I feel he made a serious mistake in execution. I get that he thinks that ultimately Snoke is strictly a functional character and that Kylo's arc is more important... But it's the third major deflated mystery box. And there's no real payoff to his elements here, and since the film is so dead set on ignoring what elements of TFA were trying to show the First Order as a leaner, meaner, more cunning and less blunt evolution of the Empire and instead double down on copying them as much as possible, it really feels unoriginal, wasted, and kind of damaging to the saga; if the heroes couldn't even force the villains to change and become more efficient/desperate, than what did they really do?

    But here, my particular speculations about Snoke (yes, I'm going with some head canon here, please be patient) I think would have actually made the sequence better. If Snoke is Diet Palpatine, less filling, and half the significance, than emoahsize that. Have Rey discover that Snoke's manipulation of Ren were really screwing with his mind, like showing him visions of Vader to gaslight him into darkness, or that Snoke was toying with both Luke and Ben that night in the hut. Have Ren note that Snoke still hasn't completed his training, that he really is being held back. Have Rey and Ren enter the courtroom scene with Ren knowing that at least some of his emotional turmoil is the result of being held back, mind-screwed, and used strictly as a tool. He now has a far more visceral reason to turn on Snoke without going Lightside, and we've seen a bit more of the paper-tiger aspect of the First Order, which means Kylo has more room to grow now, and that Luke and co. did defeat a greater villain than Snoke in the past.

    Either way, going fancy with at least one mystery box would have probably helped a bit.

    The other big difference I think is that Abrams clearly had a much stronger idea about what to do with Finn, while I think Johnson's priorities ignored what really made Finn cool: his constant growth and the audacious appeal of a literally faceless and nameless nobody becoming a major hero through incrementally more heroic decisions even though he's not that exceptional (yet). Johnson's talked about some stuff he wanted to out Finn through, but he appears to have missed how Abrams gave us probably the best character arc for a single film focused around someone just growing the right way. And while Abrams may have been guilty of ignoring some of the implications about Finn turning on his comrades, he at least had the excuse of Finn knowing he had to get away from the First Order, while Johnson stuck Finn aboard the Supremacy for what seems to have been mostly poorly written subplot reasons, and even though he apparently shot some scenes dealing with the dramatic implications of that, he clearly felt space horses were more important. His mistake.
     
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  7. Vespasian

    Vespasian Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    I have no problems with destroying headcanon ideas. I have no problems with Rey being a "nobody" either, I actually like the idea of pulling the rug (her main motivation) from under her feet.

    But JJ heavily implied the "mystery of Rey's parentage" in the TFA Maz scene in the way he directed it, or when little girl Rey was shouting at her (then) mysterious parents flying away, or when Kylo Ren first heard about Rey. It would have been better in every way to actually show us Han telling Maz that Rey is "a nobody, but a very gifted nobody." Either JJ or RJ was trolling a lot of fans for no good reason.
     
  8. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2016
    I think really though this highlights the weakness of purely depending on mystery to sell such a situation. When Vader is revealed to be Luke's father it has an impact because it really goes to the core of Luke's character, his expected story of heroically following in his fathers footsteps to win a grand victory is totally pulled from under him. In rey's case though who her parents actually were to me does not feel like it carried any weight to her, so the reveal messed with the audiences expectations but really meant little to her.

    It comes back to me to TFA really not doing a very good job with its characters, it gives us a basic introduction to them in terms of potential motivations but then largely ignores it for the rest of the film in favour of them getting thrown around by the plot as needed.
     
  9. Tyrian

    Tyrian Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2000
    In the 'fan review' thread, my review essentially states that yes - TFA is the problem, or rather, TLJ has issues because its not coherent / cohesive with TFA ,its predecessor. Copied below since is relevant to this convo:

    ---

    I am a big Star Wars fan who did NOT like TLJ as a Star Wars movie - and its very frustrating to see reviewers say/imply the ppl who didnt enjoy TLJ are some sort of imaginary 'fake news' statistic, or just the result of some kind of troll movement or review manipulation ....or clueless diehard fans who were un-pleasable because their personal fan theories never came true and never wouldve never accepted anything else. Rubbish!

    Dont get me wrong, the movie had some beautiful highs (that lightspeed collision!), some great moments (that yoda scene!), and some good fun - but it doesnt change my negative opinion and frustration. And don't get me wrong again: I would have been thrilled if my personal fan-theories were 100% false, if they were instead answered in exciting and compelling ways... I would've loved to be wrong if that were the case!

    My biggest problem with The Last Jedi can be summed up as this: As an individual film considered in a vacuum, its good/fine, but as an intended PART 2 of a 3 part Star Wars COHESIVE trilogy that BEGAN with The Force Awakens - its terrible.

    By that I mean: The Last Jedi took alot of the setup of The Force Awakens... and pissed all over it (eg killed snoke so casually). Or ignored it / didnt explore it / didnt answer it at all (eg knights or Ren). Or answered things in the most unsatisfying and underwhelming way (eg had Rey be a nobody and its glossed over quickly in one scene). Or introduced new narratives that seem bizarrely out of place. (Cruelty to animals theme?)

    I think this also answers a big part of the juxtaposing CRITICS reaction vs FAN reaction debate: Critics are more likekly to review/assess TLJ in a standalone film mentality, whereas fans are more likely to review/assess TLJ in the context I just described (part 2 of a 3 part trilogy that began with The Force Awakens).

    The heart of the problem: Rian Johnson went on record a few days ago to basically say he was given a BLANK SLATE after The Force Awakens. AKA there was no trilogy meta-arcs planned out for the characters/story etc. They just make it up as they go along. So Rian just came in and did what he wants.

    But this is meant to be a trilogy... a trilogy of cohesive films? So how does that work where you have two painters come in separately, with no preplanning or cohesion, and just start painting two different visions of something thats meant to be a 3 part cohesive story?

    It doesnt make sense and it shows. TLJ would have been a good film if a different version of Force Awakens was made, one which had TLJs reveal/direction in mind. But because The Force Awakens came out first, its The Last Jedi that instead needs to respect its predecessor more. And it doesnt.

    I love the experience of seeing a Star Wars film, and I still do. However I feel like when Kathleeen Kennedy wants a TRILOGY of films made, they need to better preplan and map out meta-arcs in advance (narrative, direction, char arcs etc) and stop with this rubbish idea of 'just make it up as you go along' - ie 'Director 1 can throw away the keys after movie 1 and walk away, and let Director 2 come in and do whatever the hell he wants".

    Astute readers might say 'but George Lucas made it up as he went along too. No evidence to suggest even he knew Vader would be Lukes father during A New Hope". Yes but he wrote or was heavily involved in all three films, which was uncharted ground back then and nobody knew whether the 1st/2nd would be enough of a success to warrant or allow him to finish a trilogy. These Star Wars movies we know are going to be fabulously $$$ successful and get a full trilogy - so why not take best advantage of it?

    James Cameron is writing 4 scripts for the 4 avatar movies and planning everything out in advance. Even if other people came in and made Avatar 2/3/4 - they would avoid this mess TLJ has created where someone comes in and pisses all over what came before it because there was no communication / direction.


    ---



    EDIT: To further demonstrate just how much of a Blank Slate Rian Johnson had, and how devoid of preplanning this trilogy has been, heres Rian Johnsons quote from a few days ago:

    Rian Johnson on The Last Jedi: “He [JJ Abrams] was really gracious, in just stepping back and giving us a blank slate to work with. The starting point was The Force Awakens script, which is quite a big, expansive, wonderful starting point. In that way, we are drawing directly from his work. But from that point forward it was a blank canvas.”

    For me that seems... inexcusable? We knew this was always going to be a part of a (wildly successful $$$) trilogy for years. So why didnt they ever approach it like one?
     
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  10. Tyrian

    Tyrian Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2000
    double post
     
  11. SmokeMonster4815162342

    SmokeMonster4815162342 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 31, 2015
    Regarding Snoke, I say the problem still lies with TFA first and foremost.

    You don't follow the end of ROTJ with a replacement Sith lord who renders the Emperor's demise irrelevant without introducing some unexpected circumstances that make it possible, or by at least drawing attention to the tragic reality of it.

    By starting TFA with Snoke in place and treating him the way the OT does the Emperor, it's suggesting that a Sith lord replacement was a given after ROTJ (which is not what the celebration at the end of ROTJ was about). Snoke wasn't a mystery box. Fans just wanted more info or attention on his rise to hopefully justify this odd decision. If fans want answers, that's not TLJ's job anymore it is Ep 9's or other media because really, it's what TFA should have done from the get go if they wanted to go this route of a replacement Sith lord.
     
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  12. Traesha

    Traesha Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2016
    Okay, here comes a long post on how I think with just a few adjustments could have made TLJ connect much better to TFA and probably make a better movie.

    We notice a lot of wasted movie time and also not using elements which could have been used differently.

    So off to the start:

    We see the First Order launching an attack on D’kar. Not to take anything but just to destroy it. Wrong here already!
    Reason: In TFA the First Order wasn’t after the resistance base, no… they were after the map to Luke Skywalker. So… all of a sudden they thought: Forget the map, we just let Skywalker train Rey. We’ll deal with them later / they’ll come to us. Yeah right.

    Alternative: We are starting off with some First Order elite troops on the ground, systematically taking over the base and capture the map (primary objective) and 2 secondary objectives:
    1) Capture Finn, as we know he is a traitor and a force sensitive and he’ll be vulnerable for the moment. He can also act as bait to lure Rey out.
    2) Capture Leia Organa, she’ll be bait to lure Skywalker away from his Jedi training.

    That would make a good start and an intelligent way to take down the Resistance and “possible” Jedi Order at the same time. They wouldn’t have to succeed in capturing Finn and maybe Leia but it would make a better start.

    Then, we get the resistance jumping to hyperspace to an unknown area. They believe they are safe. They are not. The First Order jumps in and attacks them. The resistance / rebellion comes up with a plan to avoid the First Order which results in Rian Johnson giving Finn something to do and having Rose, a new character, a task.
    That whole thing didn’t do well with the audience.
    It would have been a lot better to not have the First Order track them through hyperspace but actually have them set foot somewhere, it could be krait but it also could be like Yavin IV massassi temple.
    Off course, their new base has to be discovered during the movie. That would remove the problem with Rose & Finn and not doing anything with Finn’s force sensitivity.

    This alternative I describe here opens op a lot of possibilities which would have attracted more audience.
    Think of the possibilities. We don’t have to deal with Canto Bight which was basically impossible given the circumstance… thinking about timeframe.
    We don’t have the hyperspace kamikaze which was also a mistake.

    We could make much more use of Finn (and his force sensitivity).
    We could have the First Order attack the planet Luke is on.
    Etc. etc. etc.

    They have chosen however to forget a lot of story TFA brought us and just make it an afterthought.
     
  13. carte blanche

    carte blanche Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2017
    TLJ is the main problem for TLJ. You can’t blame the predecessor for a bad sequel. A bad sequel is a bad sequelZ
     
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