Is the character of Jar-Jar-Binks really neccessary to the story?

Each version illustrates two different type of characters - the more recent being the good hero purist. The other is more a character of unknown loyalties, a wild card, a maverick.

So, was Lucas WRONG in the first version?

 

No, it was the best he could do at the time.

Nothing changed about Han's character. Either way, he was shooting Greedo because he knew it was either Greedo or him.

The SE version just tried to make that clearer to the average viewer.

I think the SE version looked kind of hoaky, but they were using that version as a test bed for the technology they were employing there, and have since learned quite a bit more about the technique while working on the prequels.

 

"I like the new version on the DVD that comes out in September."

without even knowing how it looks, or how the scene has changed... interesting...

 

No - it definitely changes Han's character.

If everybody who could possible walk or enter a movie theatre in 1977 didn't need it 'cleared up', then it wasn't wrong to begin with.

You are suggesting that Lucas wasn't capable of doing a laserbolt on-screen at that time?

 

I trust Lucas. He knows what he is doing, and he hasn't let me down yet.

Han's character isn't changed. Before, Greedo makes it clear that he plans on killing Han, then Han shoots him. Now, Greedo actually takes a shot, which makes this dynamic clearer for the more casual viewer who may not have picked it up from Greedo's subtitled dialogue alone.

With the way you think his character has suddenly changed, it looks like the clarification was neccessary.

The reason Lucas said he didn't do it that way for the '77 release was for lack of time and money. He says they had enough squibs to do three takes. In the first take, Han's shot went off before Greedo's, in the second, Greedo shot way before Han, and in the final shot they ended up using, they went off at the same time, making it hard to tell that Greedo even shot.

Because they didn't have any more money or time to throw at the scene, he made do with what he had.

 

Again - you didn't answer. Why clear up something that didn't need clearing for the previous one jillion viewers?

And now, I'm even more confused - because last Universe I was in: Actors weren't given real laser blasters where they had to perfect their timing of shots at each other....

 

If you think his character changed, then obviously it did need clearing up.

They didn't have laser guns on set, they used real guns that shot blanks. Most of the time, the only indication of this is that you see smoke coming out of the tips of the guns, but in some scenes, like during the rescue of the princess scene in ANH, you can actually still hear gunshots in the sound mix.

 

That sound mix of the gunshots is different from CT to SE - that sound was added.

And you said the audience needed it cleared up, why did they need it cleared up? Did millions of fans cry out in terror for 30 years?

 

Millions of fans obviously had no idea they were missing the point of that sequence.

The gunshots were restored in the SE versions, but they were there in the original prints. Do you realize that every time they released ANH to theaters, they re editited things here and there?

Did you know that Beru's voice in some prints was actually the actress's real voice?

Every time they released the classic trilogy on Video, we have gotten slightly modified versions.

The SE was just much more obvious about it's changes.

 

"I have seen them."

In your mind, just as you "saw" Bail beating the **** out of the railing.

"The reason Lucas said he didn't do it that way for the '77 release was for lack of time and money. He says they had enough squibs to do three takes. In the first take, Han's shot went off before Greedo's, in the second, Greedo shot way before Han, and in the final shot they ended up using, they went off at the same time, making it hard to tell that Greedo even shot."

Funny. Everyone else who worked on that shot says otherwise, and that there was plenty of time to go back and fix it.

 

Everyone else who worked on the shot?

Like who?

It's obvious that Lucas is the last person you would trust. But for me, when it comes to what Lucas originally intended, I will take his word for it.

 

"It's obvious that Lucas is the last person you would trust."

...and it's obvious you believe Lucas incapable of lying. I guess you don't think he's human after all.

 

I just don't see why he would lie about it.

 

Funny. Everyone else who worked on that shot says otherwise, and that there was plenty of time to go back and fix it.

Who else who worked on that shot said otherwise?

No - it definitely changes Han's character.

How?

He's still a mercenary. He's still willing to let the Princess die rather than risk his life...until Luke dangles the promise of the reward in front of him. Him saying: "Better her than me" indicates, to me, a lot more about his character than not shooting Greedo first, especially given his romance with Leia in the subsequent two movies.

If everybody who could possible walk or enter a movie theatre in 1977 didn't need it 'cleared up', then it wasn't wrong to begin with.

Unless they took that scene to mean something it didn't, as in: "This scene is central to Han's character being a mercenary." Which it isn't.

 

Oh? Care to explain what scene did show him as a mercenary? Care to explain what the whole point of the Greedo scene was to begin with, if not this?

BTW, from the Annotated Screenplays:

Original Version: Suddenly, the slimy alien disappears in a blinding flash of light. Han pulls his smoking gun from beneath the table as the other patrons look on in bemused amazement. Han gets up and starts out of the cantina, flipping a coin as he leave.

SE Addendum: Suddenly, the slimy alien fires his blaster at Han, hitting the wall just to the right of Han's head. In a blinding flash of light and smoke Greedo disappears as Han pulls his [smoking] gun from beneath the table [while] the other patrons look on in bemused amazement. Han gets up and starts out of the cantina, flipping a coin as he leave.

Note the added and [removed] words. There's no indication that Greedo fired at all in the O-OT, and this is from the screenplays! There's only one "blinding flash", unless you believe Han and Greedo fired at exactly the same time.

Of course, Lucas says this...

"It was always meant that Greedo fired first. In the original film you don't get that too well. But in terms of Han's character, I didn't like the fact that when he was introduced the first thing he did is just gun somebody down in cold blood. That wasn't what was meant to be there. The other issue is a perception issue. We had three different versions of that shot: one he fires very close to when Han fires, one was three frames later, one was three frames later. And we sort of looked at it and tried to figure out which one would be perceivable, but wouldn't look corny. It's very hard to do that, because, I mean, obviously if you know the film real well and you're looking for that you see it. If you don't know the film very well and you're just watching the movie, it almost goes right by you. People don't perceive what's happened there, even now. So, it's trying to find that medium ground, and it's always this way in film, of what can the majority of the audience perceive and what can't they perceive. I like fast-paced movies--accusations have been made about this--and I like things to go by in an almost surreal way. So I'm caught between doing things that work for me--really understanding the scenes and understanding what's going on--and the audience, which I know is looking at something for the first time, and things go by in a very different way. So, there's always the conflict about where you draw the line. Perhaps I should have done it two frames sooner.

If such a scene was actually filmed, why was it not used in the SE's? Also, isn't it ironic how Lucas talks about Han coming across as cold-blooded, kinda like a mercenary?

Then there's this...

IGNFF: Do you think that's due to George's changing sensibilities as opposed to his argument that, "No, that was my original intention"?

KURTZ: Well, he can say that was his original intention, but we could have shot it that way very easily. There was no reason that it couldn't have been shot that way. It was shot and edited the way it was because that's the way the script was. That's what he wanted at the time.

As you can see, the Annotated Screenplays back up Kurtz, not Lucas. Of course, I expect Go-mer to say that Kurtz, unlike Lucas, has every reason in the world to lie. Right, Go-mer?


Oh, here's script number 4, just prior to the screenplay...

ALIEN
Going somewhere, Solo?

HAN
As a matter of fact, I was just going to
see your boss. Tell Jabba that I have his
money.

ALIEN
That's what you said yesterday, but it's
too late ... I'm not

 

Oh? Care to explain what scene did show him as a mercenary?

I did: He's still a mercenary. He's still willing to let the Princess die rather than risk his life...until Luke dangles the promise of the reward in front of him. Him saying: "Better her than me" indicates, to me, a lot more about his character than not shooting Greedo first, especially given his romance with Leia in the subsequent two movies.

Care to explain what the whole point of the Greedo scene was to begin with, if not this?

To show why Han said the 17,000 that Obi Wan offered "could really save his neck," to establish that Han was indebted to a character named Jabba the Hutt, to show that Jabba was willing to send people to kill Han, and finally, to show Greedo being killed because of his ineptitude (Jabba learned from this mistake, because he sent the more skilled Boba Fett after him in the next movie).

Care to explain how the whole point of the Greedo scene was to show Han being a mercenary, and how him being a mercenary was contingent on that scene?

You still haven't provided quotes from "everyone who worked on the scene" which contradicted what Lucas says. The only quote you provide from anyone who worked on the scene was from Lucas himself, explaining what happened. Gary Kurtz gives no indication he himself worked on the scene, and offers only vague assertions. He says this in an interview where he, and the interviewer, do little but bash the prequels and slam Lucas, and in which Kurtz tries to get back the credibility he threw away years ago by riding the wave of a backlash, creating fictions about how he was a tough-talking no man who held Lucas back, thus contradicting this quote, made around the time he was SW's producer: "If you want to categorize the function of the working producer, it is to provide all the tools so the director can do everything he wants," and also a writer's description of Kurtz during the filming of the first movie: "When Lucas talks, Kurtz listens."

What a sad, bitter little man Kurtz is. Perhaps if he spent as much time on his career as he did on fulfilling some people's needs to hear Lucas trashed, he might actually have a career.

The published script and novelization, to say nothing of the Annotated Screenplays, came out after the movie had been shot.

 

"Gary Kurtz gives no indication he himself worked on the scene"

You are aware of his job title at the time, right? BTW, there's this sentence.

KURTZ: Well, he can say that was his original intention, but we could have shot it that way very easily. There was no reason that it couldn't have been shot that way. It was shot and edited the way it was because that's the way the script was. That's what he wanted at the time.

There's every indication that Kurtz shot these scenes for Lucas. Where do you get the impression that Lucas was directly involved here?

"and finally, to show Greedo being killed because of his ineptitude (Jabba learned from this mistake, because he sent the more skilled Boba Fett after him in the next movie)."

"What a sad, bitter little man Kurtz is."

You go after me for "bashing" Lucas, and this is what you have to say about Kurtz? Does this make you a "sad, bitter" poster.

"The published script and novelization, to say nothing of the Annotated Screenplays, came out after the movie had been shot."

Ah, so all these documents, including the Annotated Screenplays, upon which the films were actually shot, are wrong?

Interesting....

UGO: So you were there; who shot first, Han Solo or Greedo?

MH: [Laughs] I always thought that it was the alien. But George [Lucas] keeps going back and tweaking these things. I don't even know anymore. I do know that they dubbed a scream when I let go in the second movie. Which was funny because [Irvin] Kershner and I discussed it, but basically Luke is committing suicide. Rather than join [Darth] Vader, he let go in a very calm way. So, he ended up dubbing a scream. He didn't tell me. He didn't have me do the scream. I don't know where he got it. Maybe it was from the library of sounds that I made for him, but I haven't double checked that, but you could tell me. Do I scream on the way down?

UGO: Why would you?

MH: That's what I say. - Mark Hamill

More are on their way. Try not to be so bitter about it, okay? We don't want to encourage bashing of either side, right? Or are you simply trying to show how much "bashers" can get away with?

 

Here's someone else with an "obvious hatred" for Lucas.

ES:Much has been made about the changes to the Greedo scene in the Star Wars: Special Edition. After working on a Han Solo novel, how do you feel about the change?

AC:I found the revised Greedo scene confusing and unnecessary. And...silly. After all, it was obvious from Han's actions that he intended to blow Greedo away, whether Greedo shot first or not. And the idea that Greedo could miss after having the first shot -- at point-blank range! -- was unbelievable. Also, it wasn't that obvious what happened. I realized, because I was prepared for it, having read about the revision. Most people in the audience, I think, didn't even realize that Greedo had fired. They just went, "Huh? Was that changed?" I assure you that in my books, Han never puts himself in the position of playing sitting duck like that! If a bounty hunter gets off the first shot, it's because Han got ambushed! - Ann Crispin

In case there is any doubt as to her credentials...

"As for my books...There is one scene in each where I believe I managed to capture Han. In each case, LFL commented on it positively, "This is pure Han!" - Ann Crispin: Anatomy of Han Solo

 

looks like "case closed" to me...

 

Yeah, Lucas wasn't lying after all.

He wasn't lying when he said he wanted Greedo to shoot first from the beginning, he wasn't lying when he says he feels Jar-Jar was a huge success, and he wasn't lying when he said that Jar-Jar's role in AOTC had nothing to do with the negative backlash he received.

And, he's not lying about there being more to Jar-Jar than "Just Comic releif in TPM.

---

Starlog June 2002

[b]George Lucas:[/b] In TPM with Jar Jar there was the whole issue of two symbiotic societies living next to each other but not cooperating. Jar Jar was the key element to tying those societies together. He was a bumbling, fumbling outcast, and his purpose plotwise was to bring them together. As a plot device Jar Jar was very important to the film. He wasn't just comic relief.[hr][/blockquote]

 

Bah. Everyone knows Lucas is a serial liar. "Definitive version?" Ha! And I still say he could (and should) have made AOTC with only Obi-wan, Anakin, Palpatine, Padme, Yoda, Dooku, Lama Su, Bail, and Jango. It would have saved him a fortune, and would have worked just as well.

 

I disagree.

 

I liked 'cold-blooded mercernary' better. Gives the character room to grow, room to change. It is the basis for his development.

 

Gomer is so funny. He ignores all of your excellent evidence of the han/greedo revision by reverting to a different argument.

Fact is, Lucas is in his own little world. Insulated and isolated.

He revises and revises and says that this was his original intent if he had the technology. Well you know what, why bother? If that's all he had at the time, then the movies should be left as they are.

I trust Kurtz, Kershner and Hamill because they don't necessarily have some "vested" interest in SW. They've made their contribution and are happy with it. I wouldn't want my work to be tinkered with.

I would still like to hear a definitive answer from gomer on the greedo/han scene. If the original version was perfect because it was from Lucas and then Lucas changes the scene, then which version is the correct one?

On Jar Jar, since Lucas seems apt to change things 10-15 years down the line in his films, perhaps we will see changes in TPM or AOTC. I would actually expect them. Jar Jar was meant for nothing more than comic relief and a display of CGI. His legacy in the SW films seems sealed with the notion of mistake after honest mistake. But, is there any more direction for Jar Jar to go? He was ancillary in TPM, he had no role save one meaningful scene in AOTC, why have him in the movie at all?

Like most critics, I think Jar Jar was a well meaning character that came across flawed. A mistake.

I hope Lucas' propensity for changing his own films will not be limited to scenes but also characters, and omit jar jar one final time.


Let us not stereotype our fellow poster.

 

Like I said, when it comes to "What Lucas originally intended", I will take his word for it before I take the words of people who were working on the film with him. It's too easy for these other people to misunderstand what is actually going on in Lucas' head, and then presume that to be the case. To me, only Lucas would know for sure what Lucas was actually trying to do at the time. Everyone else is just guessing on what little they may know about the situation.

Hudnal,

Lucas is the source of how ANH turned out originally, but his vision wasn't always acheived. I thought he did a good job for the '77 release of ANH when it came to the Greedo scene, and in fact think the SE change was much worse from an editing standpoint, but I can see why he would want to have Greedo firing first. If he were to redo the scene for the DVD release (which rumor has it he has) so that Greedo still shot first but the editing didn't look so awkward, I would probably prefer that one the best.