Is the character of Jar-Jar-Binks really neccessary to the story?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Ob1-Ob2-Ob3, Feb 7, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Trojan_Sock Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2003
    star 4
    "That is exactly why he did it the way he did IMHO."

    Let me get this straight. You are saying he did it like this because it would require a major overhaul to do otherwise? I assume the "IMHO" means you aren't going to support your belief beyond this?
  2. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I think the reason he did it the way he did it was because it made the most sense.

    I have repeatedly explained why I feel this way. I guess one more time can't hurt.

    1) Jar-Jar has been primed in TPM as a good character who is easily manipulated by fear.

    2) Bail Organa is being set up as Palpatine's most prominent opposition. He wouldn't have made a motion to grant the Chancellor emergency powers the way Lucas is setting things up so far. To have him make the call for emergency powers, Lucas would have to change Bail's character so that he was a fearful reactionary, then explain how he learned from that experience and turned into the leader of the Rebellion.

    My point is that would deviate from the real story too much (The one revolving around Anakin, Padme, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Palpatine). Not only that, but Jar-Jar is already the perfect character to make a point about good intentions leading to bad things.

    So if you are Lucas, you are going to pick the option that makes the most sense, and that which doesn't take too much time away from the main storypoints.

    The other thing having Bail make the motion would do is eliminate another cool way Palpatine had to manipulate the situation to acheive his own goals (there would no longer be a need to get Padme out of the picture so Jar-Jar can play Senator.

    Lucas is a really good storyteller, and the choices he has made so far make a lot more sense than what has been suggested here.

    IMHO.
  3. Trojan_Sock Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2003
    star 4
    "2) Bail Organa is being set up as Palpatine's most prominent opposition. He wouldn't have made a motion to grant the Chancellor emergency powers the way Lucas is setting things up so far. To have him make the call for emergency powers, Lucas would have to change Bail's character so that he was a fearful reactionary, then explain how he learned from that experience and turned into the leader of the Rebellion."

    Padme was not a "fearful reactionary".

    "My point is that would deviate from the real story too much (The one revolving around Anakin, Padme, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Palpatine). Not only that, but Jar-Jar is already the perfect character to make a point about good intentions leading to bad things."

    Assuming Lucas or the audience puts as much emotional weight into this scene that you do. With or without Jar Jar, these scenes are roadbumps compared to the emotional roller coaster of the rest of the film.

    "So if you are Lucas, you are going to pick the option that makes the most sense, and that which doesn't take too much time away from the main storypoints."

    Assuming this was Lucas' reasoning, of course. I would imagine Lucas never considered anyone else to begin with.

    "The other thing having Bail make the motion would do is eliminate another cool way Palpatine had to manipulate the situation to acheive his own goals (there would no longer be a need to get Padme out of the picture so Jar-Jar can play Senator."

    Representative, but you are right about getting Padme out of the way. Palpatine cleary knew he could manipulate Jar Jar. The problem is the rest of the Senate obviously forgot this at the most crucial moment.

    "and the choices he has made so far make a lot more sense than what has been suggested here."

    At least until the SE's come along. [face_laugh]
  4. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    In TPM, Padme was a fearful reactionary. Always looking to other people for her answers. By the end of TPM, she grew out of being a fearful reactionary, and thus Palpatine had to replace her with Jar-Jar to get the motion made.
  5. Philip023 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2002
    star 3
    Jar-Jar has been primed in TPM as a good character who is easily manipulated by fear.

    Which really begs the question as to why he was in the position he was in in the first place. someone so easily manipulated by fear shouldn't be in the position that they are. This is unexplained and really flies in the face of everything padme was trying to do.

    Bail Organa is being set up as Palpatine's most prominent opposition. He wouldn't have made a motion to grant the Chancellor emergency powers the way Lucas is setting things up so far. To have him make the call for emergency powers, Lucas would have to change Bail's character so that he was a fearful reactionary, then explain how he learned from that experience and turned into the leader of the Rebellion.

    And yet he suddenly sides with jar jar and/or does nothing to prevent the vote. if you're saying he was opposed to it, then why didn't he continue opposing it after jar jar made the motion? surely the 'crisis situation' wouldn't have influenced him because he (as you seem to assume) was against it with his 'pounding' of his fist on the balcony. yet, he inexplicably does nothing as jar jar makes the motion. Where were his ethics then?

    Not only that, but Jar-Jar is already the perfect character to make a point about good intentions leading to bad things.

    This is not the underlying theme of the saga. I don't know why you keep pressing this point. its not a major one. There is no evidence to show that jar jar knew what he was doing or why he did it.

    So if you are Lucas, you are going to pick the option that makes the most sense, and that which doesn't take too much time away from the main storypoints.

    I've already stated that with no dialogue from jar jar and the throne room scene lasting only 3 minutes, how would this deviate from the story?

    The other thing having Bail make the motion would do is eliminate another cool way Palpatine had to manipulate the situation to acheive his own goals (there would no longer be a need to get Padme out of the picture so Jar-Jar can play Senator.

    But there is no evidence to suggest that palpatine used the force or manipulated jar jar. It seems in the film that jjb did it of his own accord not really knowing or comprehending the ramifications of the motion. This detracts from the act itself.

  6. Trojan_Sock Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2003
    star 4
    "In TPM, Padme was a fearful reactionary. Always looking to other people for her answers."

    Is this your definition of a fearful reactionary? In a similar vein, what is Lucas' definition?
  7. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    In the instance when Amidala made the call for a vote of no confidence in Vallorum, she was reacting out of fear. Fear about how the Senate would handle the situation with Vallorum in charge.

    Jar-Jar became Amidala's assistant after they both brought the Gungans and the Naboo together. It was enough for Boss Nass to make Jar-Jar a "bombad general", and after the victory there, a career in politics seems like a natural place for Jar-Jar.

    Bail Organa isn't for the emergency powers, but if the majority votes for it, there isn't a whole lot he can do about it.

    Showing how good intentions can lead to bad things is all part of the "make your own choices" theme of the Saga. It illustrates why we need to be vigilent about what we do, even when it seems like we are doing something positive.

    It is apparent to me that Jar-Jar knew what he was doing and he did it because he thought it was the best way to save the Republic from the apparently unavoidable Separatist attack.

    To make it so that Bail could be in a position to make the call for emergency powers, Lucas would have to show how Bail is a fearful reactionary, and then after he made the motion for emergency powers, Lucas would have to show how he learned from that mistake and turned into a strong willed leader. It is just too high maintenance for something that is really a side point to the real story. By using Jar-Jar, there is no mess, no fuss. That's what his character was born to do.

    Palpatine wasn't using the Force to manipulate Jar-Jar. He was using fear. He set up a situation that seemed so dire, that Jar-Jar didn't have much choice but to see the radical motion as the best solution to the problem.

    He did it because he thought it was the right thing to do at the time.
  8. Trojan_Sock Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2003
    star 4
    "In the instance when Amidala made the call for a vote of no confidence in Vallorum, she was reacting out of fear. Fear about how the Senate would handle the situation with Vallorum in charge."

    So this is just a definition you made up for the sake of your position then?

    "It is apparent to me that Jar-Jar knew what he was doing and he did it because he thought it was the best way to save the Republic from the apparently unavoidable Separatist attack."

    And Bail doesn't argue with or contradict Jar Jar, either in the films or the novelizations.

    "To make it so that Bail could be in a position to make the call for emergency powers, Lucas would have to show how Bail is a fearful reactionary"

    Why must Lucas turn Bail into a concept that he isn't even aware of?

    "Palpatine wasn't using the Force to manipulate Jar-Jar. He was using fear. He set up a situation that seemed so dire, that Jar-Jar didn't have much choice but to see the radical motion as the best solution to the problem."

    Could this not be done with anyone? Wasn't this very thing done with the Jedi? Does this make the Jedi "fearful reactionaries"?
  9. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I was trying to say that Amidala was manipulated into calling for the vote of no confidence in TPM with fear. Palpatine painted a picture of a Senate that simply wouldn't act under Vallorum's rule. Because Queen Amidala was desparate to save her people in a timely fashion, she called for the vote, which was a "solution" given to her by Palpatine. Right after Palpatine was nominated to take Vallorum's place, and after hearing Palpatine's confidence in his chances for the position, Amidala started to realize she had to come to her own conclusions, her own solutions.

    Up until then, she would ask everyone around her what she should do, and would just follow their suggestions. After that point, she started acting without asking others for their opinions first. She ignores Palpatine's pleas for her to remain on Couruscant.

    She went from being easily manipulated to being a strong leader in her own right.

    Because of this newfound strength, Palpatine had to figure out a way to get the motion for emergency powers passed by the Senate. Obviously his first choice would have been Padme, because she was the biggest opposition the military creation act had. If Naboo would go along with emergency powers in this time of need, then the rest of the Galaxy would likely follow suit.

    Because Padme had grown so strong willed, Palpatine had to get her out of the way. By ordering her to go into hiding, it caused Amidala to appoint someone else who would be more easily manipulated, and who better than Jar-Jar?

    With Amidala out of the picture, Palpatine could paint a picture of an inevitable Separatist invasion, hold up the "newly discovered" clone army as a quick solution to the problem, and Make Jar-Jar think that making the motion for emergency powers would be the right (even heroic) thing to do, and BAM!, he gets the Republic lock, stock and barrel.

    Bail doesn't speak out against Jar-Jar because he isn't given the forum to do so. He didn't know Jar-Jar was going to do that, and once Binks got the floor and made the motion, the only response he could make was to not vote for it. After it was voted, the matter had been decided. I think that when we get into Episode III, we will see the growing disfavor for Palpatine's far reaching powers.

    There really wasn't anyone else set up to be as easy to manipulate as Jar-Jar. If just anyone else made the motion, we might not get the point that the person was trying to do the right thing, but was duped. The act would just blend into all the other corruption going on in the Senate.

    That's why it was essential that Jar-Jar do this.
  10. Trojan_Sock Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2003
    star 4
    "Because Queen Amidala was desparate to save her people in a timely fashion, she called for the vote, which was a "solution" given to her by Palpatine."

    Because Yoda was desparate to save his people in a timely fashion, he brought in the clones, which was a "solution" given to him by Sifo-Dyas (and, ultimately, Palpatine.)

    Because Yoda was desparate to save Padme in a timely fashion, he called for Anakin to protect her, which was a "solution" given to him by Palpatine.

    Do you get it? Palpatine does this to everyone! You are basically calling everyone except Bail a "fearful reactionary". What's he got that everyone else doesn't?

    "Because Padme had grown so strong willed, Palpatine had to get her out of the way. By ordering her to go into hiding, it caused Amidala to appoint someone else who would be more easily manipulated, and who better than Jar-Jar?"

    Sooooo, this "strong willed" person intentionally left in charge "someone else who would be more easily manipulated"? [face_laugh] Is this what you call "being a strong leader in her own right." Some leadership...

    "Bail doesn't speak out against Jar-Jar because he isn't given the forum to do so. He didn't know Jar-Jar was going to do that"

    That's so wrong, it's not even funny. Your proof for this is what, again? If you'll notice in that scene, he doesn't have trouble arguing with a senator. Now we're supposed to believe he suddenly gives deference to a representative who makes a decision that you claim Bail is supposedly vehemently against?

    Are you even trying? For all your talk of Lucas picking the "better" scenario, your explanations do it a great disservice.

    "There really wasn't anyone else set up to be as easy to manipulate as Jar-Jar."

    Dude, everbody in the PT is being duped! No one's the wiser in regards to Palpatine's plans. Jar Jar is no exception.
  11. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    It wasn't up to Yoda. Once the Senate gave the Chancellor emergency powers, what Palpatine said went. He called for a pre-emptive strike on Geonosis, and he expected the Jedi to lead the assault.

    I am not sure why you think Bail "gave deference" to what Jar-Jar did. He didn't know what Jar-Jar was going to do until he made the motion. Once that happened his choices were to vote for or against the motion. Even if he voted against it, the majority overuled him. Like I said, I am sure we will be hearing more from Bail on these alarming turn of events in Episode III.

    Everyone is being duped to some degree, however making a motion to grant Palpatine emergency powers took a special kind of duped. Padme wouldn't have gone for it, Bail wouldn't have gone for it, and the rest of the Senate might not have gone along with it if it wasn't Naboo making the motion (because they were the military creation act's largest opposition).

    It had to be Jar-Jar the way Lucas has set everything up.
  12. Darth_Tynaus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 22, 2003
    star 4
    Yea, I had heard a story on how Jar Jar was created for George Lucas's son. To me that seems appropriate.
  13. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Well, his son gave him the idea for the word "Gungan", which is what he used to call any large truck or heavy machinery. Jar-Jar as a character was meant to serve the Star Wars story first and foremost.
  14. Trojan_Sock Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2003
    star 4
    "It wasn't up to Yoda."

    I never said it was, I was simply showing that the reasoning with which you label Padme a "fearful reactionary" also relates to Yoda, as it would many others in the PT.

    "Everyone is being duped to some degree, however making a motion to grant Palpatine emergency powers took a special kind of duped."

    More distinctions, eh? I wonder if Lucas agrees with your analysis.

    "It had to be Jar-Jar the way Lucas has set everything up."

    Assuming it needed to be set up that way.
  15. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    He could have made a bunch of movies about three dudes hanging out in an apartment.

    But he is trying to finish the story of Star Wars, and with the way Lucas has laid things out, Jar-Jar had to make the motion for emergency powers.
  16. Trojan_Sock Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2003
    star 4
    "He could have made a bunch of movies about three dudes hanging out in an apartment."

    [face_laugh] This is apparently a waste of time.
  17. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Well of course it is. Why should that stop us?
  18. Philip023 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2002
    star 3
    Yet nothing you have provided to me backs up or validates your position.

    You are now talking in degrees. The degree to which Jar jar as duped. The degree to which everyone was a fearful reactionary. Where does it end?

    That doesn't make jar Jar necessary to the story. AND, it doesn't make jar jar necessary to the story that you think Lucas is trying to tell.

    Within the context of the emergency powers motion, anyone could have made the motion. It would have worked out better had it been Bail or Padme.

    The character of jjb is given this role by Lucas seemingly inexplicably because there is no justification based on merit or smarts that Jar jar would get such a position.

    Lucas is trying to tell the story of the subversion of good toward evil - as it relates to Anakin. This innocence or good intentions leading to bad things theme is hardly relevant to the main plot.

    The innocence argument takes the subversion of the republic to a new low. A decision based not only on innocence but on a lack of knowledge of political events lessens the motion.

    If we had Bail making the motion, then the politics and misplaced faith become evident. Much like today's politics, Bail could have been just as well meaning, only he would come from a position of experience and intelligence. That would make palpatine's betrayal that much more profound.

    With Jar jar, you get none of it.
  19. Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5
    The character of jjb is given this role by Lucas seemingly inexplicably

    Actually, Darth Stryphe's post about it being his favorite part of the movie does explain why.

    To please upset fans and anti-JarJarites, which Lucas claims that he does not do. ;)
  20. Trojan_Sock Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2003
    star 4
  21. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    It was done because that's what Jar-Jar is there for. Saying Lucas did that to please people who didn't like Jar-Jar is an incredibly broad assumption that is contradicted by what Lucas says about the Jar-Jar "backlash", and what impact it had in Jar-Jar's role in AOTC.

    This is an excerpt I found here.

    VOICE OVER TAPE: It's hard to call a film that sold close to a billion dollars worth of tickets around the world a disappointment, but fans say they were disappointed with Star Wars: Episode I ? The Phantom Menace. Lucas says he's heard this before.

    LUCAS: What happens is the older people that see the movie get very upset with this sort of younger ? you know, I won't say we're on the Barney level, but on the younger aspects of the movies, and they're in all the movies. And in Empire Strikes Back, the same thing happened to 3PO. They hated 3PO. They said that that jabbering ? if that robot talked any more, it's so irritating. And then I did the next film, which had Ewoks in it, and these older fans, and the older adults, all went berserk. And then in Phantom it was about (the character) Jar Jar.

    SIEGEL: An interesting quote I read in Time where you said, "I can't make a movie for fans."

    LUCAS: Well, I can't. The audience wants all different things. I definitely am not a guy who markets my ? that's market testing on my movies and says, oh, this is what the audience wants, so I'm going to give it to them. In the end, it really has to do more with storytelling than anything else.
    />

    Interviewer: Speaking of Jar Jar Binks, certain sections of the fan base and audience have violently taken against him. Can you see where they are coming from?

    Lucas: Yeah. It's always been there. There's a group of fans who don't like comic sidekicks. They wanna see The Terminator, they wanna see a different kind of movie. But this isn't that movie. That same group of fans absolutely hated R2 and 3PO in the first film; in the second film they hated Yoda, he was not a well-like character - "We can't understand what he's talking about, he's green, he's a muppet." In the third film, they hated the Ewoks, couldn't stand the cute little sidekick creatures - "We don't like it. It makes it beyond a children's film." They can't stand it that there is this aspect to these movies, but comic sidekick characters have been in every single movie.

    Interviewer: And will they continue to be?

    Lucas: And they will continue. I'm sorry if they don't like it. They should go back and see The Matrix or something. These are PG movies. I'm not gonna take those kinds of characters out. Obviously when you get a small group of fans who hate something, it becomes compounded by the internet. The press picks up the internet like it's a source. They don't realize it is just one person typing out their opinion. It's been my experience, and the experience of 20th Century Fox, that most of the people who go to the movie, at least 95 per cent, love Jar Jar. He's extremely popular with kids. He's popular with women. It's funny that the five percent of the audience - even less probably - who don't like Jar Jar are the ones that get written about. In the toy world, Darth Maul is the biggest seller, but Jar Jar is up there. Part of it is an ageism thing. "I'm cool, I'm hip, I'm embarrassed I'm liking a movie that appeals to young kids." You have to get over the fear of being declared unhip or not tough.
    />
    />/>/>
  • Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5
    He's a professional, Go-Mer. I know he says that. He's not going to say differently. Your quotes prove nothing.

    I work for a Corporate Communications group. People/professionals who write and make official statements like that all the time, every day for people just like George.

    Trust me, nothing that he says hasn't been polished, or he says little about it. He knows exactly what to say and how to say it - the PC answer.

    Lucas is more controlling of his official statements than anybody I've ever seen. He's very reclusive, and almost every single interview he's ever given is pre-scripted. Usually, he's even written the questions that he wants asked before conceding to the interview.

    His statements/quotes are valid when it comes to proving what he intends for a particular scene or the meaning behind it. But when it comes to something like 'catering to fans', he's not going to say anything but "No, I don't do that." Everything has a spin in his favor on it. That's the difference between professional and amateur.
  • Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Hey do whatever you have to do to pretend he doesn't mean what he says about his detractors.

    I for one don't see any reason to disbelieve him.

    Maybe if the nagative flack had any impact on his box office returns, he would have cause to re-think what he's doing. But short of that, Lucas knows what he's doing, and he is certainly not going to let the white noise better known as "fan opinion" dictate how he finishes these films.
  • Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5
    It did have an impact... look at the difference between AOTC and TPM. Massively different. The worst Star Wars ever when measured in true monetary value, and in public sentiment.

    He also has ALL the motive in the world to 'stretch the truth.' Hollywood is the Polished Image Capital of the World. Lucas is a huge business man with billions of dollars in the retail market.
  • Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Look at the difference between Hope & Empire, THEN look at the difference between Phantom & Clones again

    http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/trilogy.htm

    Interesting isn't it ?

  • Thread Status:
    Not open for further replies.