Discussion Is the Emperor really dead?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by LANDO_ROCKS, Jan 31, 2013.

  1. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    What would you do with the convention?

    Pulling back Palpatine as villain is underwhelming as that villain already got his ass kicked.
    Plagueis has zero personal connection to the heroes as of now, which doesn't generate many feels, and feels are to be maximized.

    I mean I guess you could have one of the Big Three killed, but that would generate emotion no matter the villain used.
    Pro Scoundrel and Dra--- like this.
  2. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    Who knows, but Plagueis isn't a resurrection. We've heard of him, but we don't know a thing about him. He's connected to the story, the heroes will be new. So you have new heroes and a newish villain and how does any story work with heroes and villains?
    Dra--- likes this.
  3. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    Well, everything is a convention: science fiction, romance, horror, realist drama. They all have their tropes that make them what they are. You can either do the convention really well, or you can work against it somehow. In a postmodern or avant garde version of pulp, you might either critique the conventions in fun ways while also enjoying them for what they are, or you might reveal how they function to serve certain ideologies.

    But I think you're interested in how the convention would be used in popular entertainment, and how that could be fresh, or at least interesting. Using Star Wars as an example, I would suggest that the convention itself isn't what's at issue, but whether or not the character that was being resurrected or wasn't really dead had an interesting motivation or character arc. For example, we have lots of romance stories that are cliche, but we don't care because what's interesting are the characters, their motives, and how we attach to them. I've already written before that an arc I would enjoy for Palp would be if he was now a wretched Force spirit. I couldn't help but pull for him to grow powerful again. Another interesting aspect would be for the heroes to have to deal with the problem of destroying something apparently indestructible. That could take us any number of interesting directions, either to the Whills or the Netherworld, or to some planet with mystics that hold the answer.

    As for personal connection to the heroes, I disagree. Luke fought Palpatine. Palpatine helped to make Anakin evil. There's a deep history here. Heck, what personal connection do you need really when Palpatine was responsible for the destruction of the Jedi and Republic. That is someone to be feared, even if they were defeated for a time.

    But even assuming Palp got his ass kicked is problematic. If he or Plagueis became ghosts after death, they simply took on a new form. That makes them scarier than ever since now the question of if they can ever be destroyed is now an issue.

    I also like your idea that Palp can come back and kill someone to re-establish himself. And him killing a Sky-Solo would be more resonant than a brand new villain doing it because he's been the cause of trouble all along.

    There's also the issue of how Palp comes back. Assuming his character arc is interesting, the how of it could be interesting too. What if he's attached to some mysterious location that our heroes need to investigate. We could learn more about the Sith, Korriban, or even Chaos with a Palp returns plot. There's a lot of territory that can still be explored in the GFFA, and one of these locals has to do with the Sith, and the Netherworld. A Return Plot is a perfect way to explore these things we don't know about. One just has to make these things interesting and not so expository.
    Last edited by Dra---, Nov 27, 2013
    Mystery_Roach and Immortiss like this.
  4. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2013
    star 4
    I greatly enjoyed reading your own musings and conjectures regarding the nature of Force Ghosting as it applies to the Living Force. But I always got the feeling that the Living Force and the Unifying Force are both philosophies followed strictly by the Jedi; they are part of the First Pillar of a Jedi's education, and following these aspects of the Force are an essential part of a Jedi's lifestyle and mission. The PT Jedi, with the notable exception of Qui-Gon, were more adherents of the Unifying Force, trying to sense the future. A Jedi following the Living Force is sensitive to all living things, as you mentioned from the Wook article, but I cannot believe that a Sith would knowingly follow these aspects of the Force like the Jedi do; they are focused solely on utilizing the dark side of the Force, which I believe is quite different in nature to both the Unifying and Living Force, even if it retains aspects of both. For example, while a Jedi following the Living Force might be conscientious of all life, and feel great pain when many die at once (like Yoda during Order 66 and Obi-Wan following Alderaan's destruction), a Sith would take great pleasure in seeing these things come to pass; they have a disregard for all life they view as inferior to themselves.

    Ghosting is heavily implied to be a light side power in the films, though from the EU and my own beliefs it seems achievable to sufficiently powerful Sith Lords. Still, I do not think they retain their spirits after death by adhering to the tenets of the Living Force; on the contrary, I believe the Sith achieve this by eternally struggling against oblivion in a state of perpetual torment (i.e. Chaos) that's vastly different from how a Jedi would achieve ghosthood---by willingly letting go of one's physical form, and through an act of selflessness, they manage to retain their identity. There may or may not be some relationship to following the Living Force, but I'm pretty sure the secret to achieving this was preserved by the Whills after it was lost to the Jedi for thousands of years. A Sith spirit may be able to retain their identity at first, but I believe that over time they surrender to madness and lose a lot of themselves in their delusions of grandeur that has long since past.
    Iron_lord, Immortiss and Dra--- like this.
  5. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I wouldn't mind a broken, pathetically weak force spirit, but again, who would like to see that?

    Palpatine fans not, that's for sure. They want him to be the super-overpowered power fantasy he is in the EU.
    Palpatine haters who enjoyed seeing him go down don't want to see him period, and definitely not as villain.

    Additionally, building this cliché cartoon into a real "character" with a character arc would take away screen time from the protagonists.

    I think you misread my post. I said Plagueis has no personal connection to the heroes. Palpatine obviously does...

    So you want to make him more powerful to compensate? Audiences who rooted for him being killed in ROTJ ain't gonna like that.

    That produces a negative kind of feels: rage at the director/script writer.

    Don't forget that Palpatine is a character who was written to be hated. Most people don't want to see him in his "second spring", including me. That bastard already got too much valuable screentime devoted to him.
    Pro Scoundrel, Dra--- and Immortiss like this.
  6. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    Although I loved Palpatine's screen time. He was the best thing going in ROTJ, IMO.
  7. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Plagueis/the Sith creating Anakin is not a retcon, it is the intention of the creator and doesn't alter any narrative.

    The ST might very well show that the prophecy was misread and that Anakin wasn't the chosen one, or wasn't the chosen one in the way people assumed.

    Once again, there is no evidence or suggestion in the movies that Anakin was born of the Force, only that it was possible he was created by the midichlorians and that a Sith Lord could manipulate the midis to do so.

    Anakin born of the Force was an assumption people made after watching 1/3 of the PT.

    and Luke has the same midi count Anakin has, which could play into the ST turning assumptions on their head.
  8. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    It is not established in the narrative, it is left open. Any contact the Whills might have via the Force would come through the midi-chlorians. Thus born of the Force. Assuming Plagueis is not God, just a mortal meddler at this point.

    I know you're hoping Luke will be the main protagonist in the ST, but I believe we've heard that the story will involve the next generation and Luke will 'pass on what you have learned'. I think the key here is to 'pass on' literally and figuratively. If Luke is unwilling to let go, then he may have Sith issues himself. Which is what we witnessed in the OT and the PT.
  9. Darth Raiden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2013
    star 3
    Heck his little screen time in TESB was blooming epic... I marked out like mad :D
    Immortiss likes this.
  10. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    I know you want Anakin born of the Force, but the Whills are never mentioned, must less explained in the movies. The Prophecy is a Jedi prophecy anyway, not a Whill prophecy, so I think you need to rethink the whole Force created Anakin thing.

    The Force is not a god either, it is an energy field CREATED by all living things. Not the other way around.

    While I do expect Luke to be the central figure in the ST based on what Lucas has said, I realize he will be passing on what he had learned. The point is that I realize this story can be told from 2 points of view, either from the student or from the teacher. Most people seem to assume it will be from the students' point of view. I think it will befrom the teacher's. We already have 6 movies following the student, 3 more won't conclude the saga. 3 from the teacher will.

    The rumors from last month had Arndt's script focused on the new gen, while JJ wanted the focused shifted to Luke (which happens to coincide with whatLucas has said all along).
    Dra--- and Immortiss like this.
  11. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    I like your post. It's thoughtful. I wasn't, at least I wasn't trying, to suggest that the Force was a God. The 'all living things' is appropriate, but remember it's also 'crude matter'. I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that there are Mortal Masters of the Force and Immortal Masters, so to speak. One group follows the other. Ancient peoples, mastering the Will of the Force, long forgotten by the Jedi makes sense from the mythological pattern that seems to be establishing itself in the narrative. If the Dark Side crude matter is attempting to subdue the eternal 'unnaturally', than I think we can reasonably conclude that an Ancient, now immortal, beings may divinely intervene in the history of the GFFA. What better than a baby? Anyway, Anakin had his own will and made poor decisions, but not without divine purpose. Thus, Anakin as 'The Chosen One' can be the only Sith who can redeem himself from the Dark Side and retain immortal consciousness in the Netherworld.
    Last edited by Immortiss, Nov 28, 2013
    Dra--- likes this.
  12. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    The force is a god. It is all powerful, eternal, it speaks to its chosen ones and it has a will.
    Darth Archimage, Dra--- and Immortiss like this.
  13. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    Thanks for clearing that up for us.:p
    Dra--- and Darth_Pevra like this.
  14. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    You're welcome.

    The picture is however unclear when you go into the EU. Sometimes the force is treated like a god there, other times like a mere energy field.
    Dra--- likes this.
  15. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    Well, you just said you would. And I do too.

    This is overly reductive, imo. I'm a Palpatine fan, and I'm interested in seeing him again, even if he's weak. And I'm not sure who these Palpatine haters are and why they wouldn't want to see him go down again. I like watching the Joker go down again and again. I've been watching this and reading it for two decades now, and when it's well done, it's great.

    Take away screen time from the protags as Vader, who you love, did in the OT? Don't see a problem there. Plus, there are character arcs and character arcs. It's normal to have secondary arcs in films where we have antagonists or supporting heroes overcome some block and succeed at some goal. This secondary kind of arc doesn't need the same amount of internal struggle (which takes time) that we see with a protag.

    And I find it paradoxical that you don't like Palp as a cliche or a more developed character.

    Yeah, I did misread that. Why does Plagueis or any villain need a personal connection to the heroes? In the beginning the Joker had no connection to Batman in the Dark Knight. I'm not sure what your point is here... Anyway, I don't agree that Plagueis has no connection to the Skywalkers -- he was involved (probably) with the inadvertent creation of Anakin. If someone told me they created my grandfather or father, and then insinuated that the darkside runs through my family as a result, I would feel a very intense personal connection to the person.

    Eh, why not? I rooted against him. I would find it fun to see him come back tougher than ever. How do we know how these "audiences" feel? Has their been a study I don't know about?

    Why would the hate necessarily be directed at the director or writer? If the story was well done, the audience would only feel fear or rage at Palpatine. That's good for the story. You want audiences to fear villains.

    It's hard to know how to respond to this. You're claiming something about most fans without any data, so it must just be your own opinion you're talking about. All I can say is, I think "that bastard" deserves more screen time and I think, based off my own enjoyment of Palp (imo), that most people would want to see his second spring.

    @Circular Logic:

    I'm not sure a Sith would need to knowingly follow the Jedi's version of TLF or TUF; it may just be an intuitive act. I think there are some fundamental qualities of TLF that don't necessarily contradict Sith ideology. And I'm not sure if it matters whether or not a Sith feels indifference to others dying because, like Anakin, they would have anger or pain at their allies or loved ones dying (for example, Padme). The Jedi probably don't care when a Sith dies, or when a villain dies, just because that being is a living thing.

    Also I'm unclear as to what sensitivity to living things actually means. Does it mean that Force users are in a kind of mental contact with living things, or does it mean that they have empathy for them? I think it's the former because for the Sith to even use the Force -- a power that binds all living things -- then they would in principle need to have sensitivity to living things.

    Also again, being sensitive or in touch with living things is not necessarily a light side quality, for some living things are quite dangerous or amoral. That's why TLF has both a dark and light side: parts of nature have a darkness to them.

    Lots of interesting points here. In general, I agree with them, and I hope that the ST can shed light on it all. The main question in my mind from your thoughts here would be: how does Chaos differ from the Netherworld proper? I think the Wook says that Chaos is supposedly some local of madness for Sith lords, but that it's still some local of the Netherworld. If so, is it the local that differs or is it how the Sith spirits approach life in Chaos?

    There are some paradoxes or contradictions here that confuse me. The Jedi lets go of their physical form, but not completely. Their "self" or their identity is largely a construction of the corporeal world. Retaining the self is in a very real sense retaining one's physical form. One could argue that the Jedi, like the Sith, are not willingly letting go of their identity. So why should a Sith experience madness by holding onto their Self while the Jedi do not? IDK.
    Last edited by Dra---, Nov 28, 2013
  16. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    What is broken about him when he is capable of destroying a Skywalker? Palpatine only cares for power, not the delights of the flesh.

    The Joker isn't Palpatine. Yes, the Joker is almost universally loved.

    But you can't deny that there are a lot who find Palpatine plain disgusting. And part of human nature is that we tend to avoid disgusting things, we don't want to see them. If you want I can search out the studies. Pubmed is just a click away.

    You misunderstand. I don't mind if a villain is build up.

    But Palpatine is just not worth the effort. His entire concept is boring and flawed to begin with, so why would I be interested in a character arc?

    I think it is way more epic and dramatic. It is typical opera material and Star Wars really is a space opera. Everything is ladden with meaning and every event carries tremendous weight. Changes are permanent and don't get undone on a whim like in Superhero Comic books. And I love that! SW shares more with opera than it does with pulp imo.

    But the darkside doesn't run through the family. Luke is not fool enough to believe that. Besides, this is a repeat of the OT. Vader told Luke it was his destiny to become a Sith, he more or less implied that the DS runs through the family too. So yea, nothing new.

    The story isn't well done when the plot concept is lazy and stupid. You can't turn **** into gold. Turning opera into a franchise like Marvel is an atrocity.

    You are denying he was constructed to be hated?
  17. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    The force is not a god. It is an ENERGY FIELD. An energy field that is CREATED by all living things. Gods are created, they create.
  18. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Pallas Athene was created by Zeus like many other egyptian or greek or norse gods. Gods can be created.

    There are many different definitions for what makes a god a god. Not every god is like the christian one.
    Immortiss and Mystery_Roach like this.
  19. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    This is very true, no debate from me. But in your example Zeus is the king of the gods, not a normal being creating a god. Gods can be created by other, higher gods.

    The one thing I can say is that no religion/mythology I'm aware of has a god that is created by normal people. That kind of defeats the purpose of a divine entity.

    The force is created by all living things, not another divine entity. Completely different from your example.
  20. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    The Dalai Lamas and the Buddha were "created" by normal people. Sure you can claim they aren't gods, but they're definitely divine entities.

    Even better example: Krishna

    A god of war is an avatar of war and wouldn't exist without it, as the force wouldn't exist without living things. In a sense you can say they're both created.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Nov 29, 2013
    Mystery_Roach likes this.
  21. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    No offense, but none of these are even remotely similar to the Force, much less gods created by men.

    The Dalai Lamas are considered to be reincarnations of the enlightened human being Sonam Gyatso. Dalai Lamas are not gods.

    Buddha was a sage who taught a specific way of life, for which his followers named Buddhism. Once again, not a human created god.

    Krishna is a human incarnation of the Hindu god Vishnu. Human incarnations of deities is the deity taking human form, not humans creating the deity. This incarnation is a type of avatar, which leads to:

    Gods of War. You have it backwards. An avatar of a god of war is a deity associated with war that enters into the human realm in physical form. Wars exist because they do, they do not exist because wars do.

    Which ties into the Force. The force exists because there are living beings, living beings do not exist because there is a Force. Life creates it, makes it grow. It doesn't create life.

    Keep in mind that while the force is based on concepts such as chi or akasa, it has its own Lucas infused ideas. None of those ideas include the Force as a deity.
  22. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    Is it an ancient religion?
    TKT and Darth_Pevra like this.
  23. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Technicalities. If something is treated like a god, it is a god imo, no matter the names it is actually given. Buddha, the Dalai Lama and Krishna are definitely treated like gods in other religions are/were.

    Humans being treated like gods is nothing new. The pharao in old egypt was god emperor. He was both human and often enough called god.

    I didn't find it in the english wiki, but the german one has proof.

    Abgesehen von der kompletten fünfteiligen Königstitulatur führen die altägyptischen Texte auch weitere Benennungen beziehungsweise sogenannte Beinamen des Königs auf. Diese sind sowohl innerhalb seiner Titulatur als auch außerhalb dieser belegt: der vollkommene (gute) Gott“, „der große Gott“, „Herr der Kronen“, „Herr der beiden Länder“, „Herr des Machens der Dinge (der Kulthandlungen)“ sowie „Herr der Sedfeste.

    Which brings me to a philosophical question: If there are no worshippers, can there be a god?
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Nov 30, 2013
    Dra--- and Darth Chiznuk like this.
  24. LANDO_ROCKS Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2002
    star 4
    A little off topic.

    So did anyone find Sidious' dead body yet? I just watched ROTJ again, still think he's not dead.
    T-R-, SHARKY_CHOMPCHOMP and Dra--- like this.
  25. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    He transformed himself into a ghost like Obi-Wan did.