Is the Empire really evil?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Quixotic-Sith, Apr 8, 2005.

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  1. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    I am neither condemning every person in the Empire nor the Nazis and German people. I am saying there were evil people in both, including the leaders. Many of the people are not evil. However in general, the Empire is evil.

    Honestly several people here seem to be simply arguing for the sake of it. Taking a contrary position just to see if they can defend it or to play the Devil's advocate. No one in their right mind would try to argue that Palpatine/Sidious is not evil. The Dark Side of the Force is not just some other philosophy on life. It's EVIL. There are things that are just wrong, no matter what. The Dark Side is just that.


    Going back to a "due process" argument, it seems that if people insist on saying that our morals and processes have to be applied, then the empire itself would be deserving of due process before it it condemned as an evil institution, much like people alleged with murder.

    Yes and once the Empire is overthrown I would expect the people within the government who commited crimes and evil acts to be put on trial and convicted for their acts. However, like the Nazis, Palpatine, Vader, Tarkin and others have avoided this fate by dying.

  2. plokoon_da_sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2005
    star 1
    Actually it is a different philosophy. And i know that people agree 100% with what they have said and are not putting on a show. I personally do not believe palpatine is entirely evil because i am able to see it a separate entity from our universe. Were palpatine real, and in our universe, sure he'd be evil. But in the universe they are in, i agree totally with the empire and palpatine. Besides, i forget which philosopher it was, but one argued that titles such as good and bad and evil were simply titles used to distinguish people from one another, but they had no true meanings beyond that. When someone believes themselves to be right, they automatically see the other side as evil.

    --No one in their right mind would try to argue that Palpatine/Sidious is not evil.--

    And i find it offensive for you to assume that only an idiot would have a differing opinion than yours.
  3. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Forgive me, I did not think we had a real Sith Lord posting on this site. I stand corrected.

    ^^ this is merely sarcasm, not a personal jab ^^
  4. plokoon_da_sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2005
    star 1
    ---Forgive me, I did not think we had a real Sith Lord posting on this site. I stand corrected.---

    That was even more offensive. There is no need to sound condescending just because you are a mod and can get away with insulting people on this board.
  5. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    You are talking about agreeing with someone akin to Hitler, responsible for the deaths of MILLIONS of innocent people!! How can you expect anyone to take this seriously?

    Oh and you are the one who said idiot not me. I simply said no one in their right mind. And if you are offended by a little sarcasm directed at you, you need to lighten up a little bit.

  6. plokoon_da_sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2005
    star 1
    You know, you're on a roll insulting people here. Good to know being a mod gives you that right.

    I never once said that i agreed with hitler. And it'd be a bad comparison anyway, considering that Palpatine was in no way based off of hitler. he was based on Nixon. That came from George Lucas himself. It was stated in GL's biography, You should read it.
  7. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Is that the same biography that says the Empire is evil?

    It doesn't matter what specific thing might have inspired a given character, there are parallels that can be drawn. And I did not say you agreed with Hitler... I said you agreed with someone AKIN to Hitler. Big difference. Palpatine is responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent people. That is an indisputable fact from the FILMS. Also that is something that Nixon was NOT responsible for, so that parallel is bad right there. Yet you said you agree with him. Thus you agree with someone who is responsible for something akin to Hitler.



  8. plokoon_da_sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2005
    star 1
    Actually, in no way does the biography say anything about the empire being evil. It's called Skywalking: The Life and Films of George Lucas. By Dale Pollock. And you tell others to refrain from personal jabs, but you seem to be doing those yourself. So, who edits your posts?

    And it is also FICTION. Did you not understand me when i said i agreed with it as fiction. not reality. So no, i cannot be said to agree with someone akin to hitler. Why? because palpatine actually DOESN'T exist.

    And so now, sorry to everyone else for getting this thread sidetracked, and will get back on topic from here on out.
  9. Darth_IRS Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2005
    star 2
    Hey no fair. You boys didn't wait for me.

    "There are always two sides to something, and there are two ways to see a situation. In the movies we were presented with one side, and it would be wrong to not consider the fact that there is another side/view."

    We do not only see one side in the movies. We see the Empire's side through Vader, The Emperor, Tarkin, etc., and the other side through the Jedi, the Rebels, etc. What the individual characters say in the films could be seen as being biased because they will obviously think that they are correct in their views. But as a viewer, we also see their actions. And the actions of the Empire are clearly evil, while the actions of the Jedi are good; selfless.


    "Forgive me, I did not think we had a real Sith Lord posting on this site. I stand corrected."

    [face_laugh]










































    [face_laugh]
  10. King_Jinn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2005
    star 1
    Defending any actions of Palpatine is a losing battle, one because he is a Sith and two hes the freakin' Lord of the Sith, lol.

    Like Strilo said, "The Dark Side of the Force is not just some other philosophy on life. It's EVIL. There are things that are just wrong, no matter what. The Dark Side is just that." .

    Done and done!
  11. Darth_IRS Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2005
    star 2
    I'm still waiting for some examples from the movies that show the Empire to be good.
  12. Bacon164 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 7
    I can actually see from Arisin's point of view. There were many people who thought that the Republic was corrupted, and the Empire was reforming this. But, the point is, Palpatine did not care if the government was better or not. That was simply a way to get what he wanted: domination. Palpatine was not a peace-maker. He would do anything to get what he wanted. Maybe he wanted peace, but he went about the wrong means of doing it.
  13. HowardFilms Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2005
    star 4
    I believe that while the Empire is evil, and the way he uses the Empire is evil, (Let us not forget he wanted to destroy the Jedi) the system works better than the republic. Had the Jedi not been eliminated, and a proper leader was at the head, the Empire could have made for a happy, protected, peaceful galaxy.
  14. Bacon164 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 7
    You think the ENTIRE Empire is evil? Only Vader and Palps. Some are corrupted officials, and some are simply officers and soldiers doing what they're told to do whether they like it or not.

    I don't think that the Empire is a better system. It only needed to be reformed, rather than be reworked. My two cents. How many posts have I had on this thread? :p
  15. Battlemaiden Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2005
    star 1
    On 'tweaking' or reforming the Imperial System:

    Ronald Reagan once called the Soviet Union the "Evil Empire." It was a, seemingly soulless superpower with hundreds of Atomic and Hydrogen bombs pointed right at the United States. Its leaders had committed many heinous acts in their time (Lenin's labor camps, Stalin murdering millions, Brezhnev ruining people with the KGB), but the people weren't 'bad.' They were mostly just afraid and paralyzed.

    When Gorbachev was appointed the General Secretary of the Politburo, he instituted "perestroika," i.e., tweaking the system to make it less vicious, but still keeping the party and the military in power. What Gorbachev found was that by exposing the rotten core of the party through progressive liberalization, he was sending the whole of the Soviet Union sliding toward oblivion. In the end, Gorbachev doomed Soviet communism with well-meaning reforms.

    I liken the Empire to the old Soviet Union. It was a vast beauracracy run by a few corrupt Moffs and a dictatorial Emperor. Even if the Emperor had tried to "tweak" the Empire and make it better (though he wouldn't have, being a Sith Lord and thriving on darkness and all), the Moffs would have likely taken it as a threat to their power, and responded accordingly. Just like the hardliners in the party did in the Soviet Union. Good times, huh?

    In the end, this really is a pointless debate, since George Lucas has said over and over again that the Empire is meant to be the Galaxy at its very lowest point. In that sense, I think it's kind of terrifying that certain posters here seem to think that military dictatorships, rampant abuse of power and terror apparatuses "work" and are a legitimate form of government.

    Because they aren't.

    And neither was the Galactic Empire. Hence its demise 25 years after its proclamation. It didn't even last as long as the Soviet Union.

    >I mean the Republic needed to be reformed, not the Empire.

    I don't think that the Empire is a better system. It only needed to be reformed, rather than be reworked.

    I was confused by that?
  16. Bacon164 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 7
    I meant that the Republic needed to be reformed, not the Empire.
  17. DARTHMORDOR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2003
    star 4
    I think I have a solution to all our problems. since there are two sides to every story let the empire tell their version. lets pitition lucas to remake the ot from the viewpoint of the empire. show those disruptive rebels for the terrorists they are sort of thing. then arisin will have his proof.

    the empire is evil. it's leaders are evil they do evil things.

    according to arisin seril killers get a trial. he said this back on page 8 or 9.

    so how come criminals get a trial but not innocent people? you don't make any sense.

    we only have the movies to use as evidence. and the evidence points in the direction of a pretty evil government.

    there are ways to rule with out resorting to power through fear.
  18. The_Flargg Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2004
    star 2
    The whole point of Star Wars, as Strilo has said, is too put our own human culture in a fantasy envrironment. That would mean that the Jedi are good and the Sith evil. Besides, if what Palps did was "acceptable" in their world, would not that make the Jedi ultra-good? Or are moral alignments completely reversed there and we have a completely wrong perception of the Star Wars galaxy? I think not.
  19. Darth_IRS Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2005
    star 2
    If that was true GL would have named it "Bizarro Star Wars."
  20. The_Flargg Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2004
    star 2
  21. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    Yes. Theres lots of bad things like mass murders and genocide going on around the world as we speak, does that make our countries evil for doing nothing?

    Nice try; alternatively I can argue that there were lots of bad things like mass murders and genocide in the world that HAS gone punished and in many places the punishment continues (ya know, the whole justice system that exists in America, for example) because we have the power to do good.

    Would the non-exercise of this power make us evil when we have the ability to stop just attrocities? Yes, because to stop them is right. I do recognize that not every evil action can be stopped, but the attempts that we can make, morally, should and must be attempted as a matter of principle.

    In absolutely all cases would you argue that complacency with evil actions is not immoral?

    The answer is no.


    Ciou-See the Sig
  22. Darth_IRS Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2005
    star 2
    "Time of death...4/25/05 11:08am"
  23. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    The Empire as a whole is a mechanism of political control - that does not make it inherently evil. The actions done during its time speak for ill and for good, and there are goods done by it. Even if we use historical parallels, there are both good and evil actions to be found. The parallel that first comes to mind is the Holy Roman Empire. It isn't much of a stretch to see the Emporers of Rome as eventually being corrupt and surrounded by willing servants, committing evil actions. That part of the institution can be condemned as evil. However, the overall institution might not share the same flaws - the HRE built roads, improved sanitation, unified monetary system, improved education, etc. Despite corruption, it produced goods for its citizenry (c.f., the debate on the 'evils' of the HRE in Life of Brian by the People's Front of Judea):

    Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
    Attendee: Brought peace?
    Reg: Oh, peace - shut up!
    Reg: There is not one of us who would not gladly suffer death to rid this country of the Romans once and for all.
    Dissenter: Uh, well, one.
    Reg: Oh, yeah, yeah, there's one. But otherwise, we're solid.


    In a like manner, the Empire unifies the systems, it provides for education and training (Luke wants to join the Academy, remember), and it put an end to the Clone War. So we cannot condemn it as purely evil. In a like manner, if GL intended to portray the Empire as the "low point" as others have called it, it does not immediately or necessarily means evil, as in the entire institution willfully and consistently engaging in objectively wrong action. The Dark Ages were a low point in European History - does that make the dominant forces of the time evil?

  24. Darth_IRS Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2005
    star 2
    Hey, this thread had a do not resuscitate order in its wallet.

    built roads, improved sanitation, unified monetary system, improved education, etc.

    The Empire didn't exactly seem to keen on upkeep. Everything looks kind of battered. I think most of their resources probably went to the DS.

    Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
    Attendee: Brought peace?
    Reg: Oh, peace - shut up!
    Reg: There is not one of us who would not gladly suffer death to rid this country of the Romans once and for all.
    Dissenter: Uh, well, one.
    Reg: Oh, yeah, yeah, there's one. But otherwise, we're solid.


    You have to love Monty Python

    it provides for education and training (Luke wants to join the Academy, remember)

    I thought he meant the Rebellion's Academy. Didn't he meet up with his friend who went, when he was preparing to fly his X-Wing against the DS? Seriously, have I had it wrong all these years? If so, that could explain why Owen doesn't want Luke to go.

    Besides, them seemed pretty educated in the Republic.

    it put an end to the Clone War.

    Isn't that kind of like a arsonist putting out his own fire once it has consumed half a house?

    The Dark Ages were a low point in European History - does that make the dominant forces of the time evil?

    Well how about the Third Reich; was it evil?
  25. DARTHMORDOR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2003
    star 4
    here ww go again...

    (throwing a dead horse on a field, baseball bat, proced to beat said horse)

    iris you just remined me of the "used" universe. everything is pretty run down. the technology looks old compared to the things in the pt.

    luke wants to go to the acadamy. yes. what school is never stated. mabye its on tatooine, perhaps alderan, what ever. is it a state school, or is it privet? none of this is stated. none of it is important. but yes it does establish there is a system of school.

    remember luke a farmers boy on a deset world "outside" the empire still does not like the empire, even tells 3po this. why? what reason does he have to "hate the empire"? word has spread even to the outer rim of the evil of the empire.

    another question, if tayooine is not part of the empire why are stormtroopers patroling the streets. I think this implies the hutts and the empire have an understanding. the empire controls the galexy but turn the other way regarding the hutts.

    this implies a croupt government. so once again we move in the direction of an evil empire.

    sure they may have accplished a few good things but we don't really see them in the movies.

    ending the clone wars is a really bad example of the good the empire has accplished. palpitine said when the war is over he would relese the emergency powers. as darth sidious started the clone wars. so his ending them really just does not mean much.

    now it's someone else's turn to beat the horse.
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