Is the Empire really evil?

"I disagree."

Disagree with what? A post or the thread topic?

 

sure it can be argued that the people of the empire were not evil, but the government, which is what we are really discyssing here, was. evil without question.

there are of courese parrlles to the real world. piett is a good man with a real bad job. I don't see him as evil. rommell in the german army during wwII was a good man just happened to be on the wrong side. he was fighting for his country not his government. (even tried to assist in the assination of hitler). piett is very simmiler. but he is on the side of evil.

this is why there is usually a gernal amanisty given to the solders who fought on the losing side. they really had no choice. the leaders are the ones who are punished.

there was an agenda of terror. "fear will keep the systems in line" this is a vrey evil statement. it implies that if you stand up and say your taxes are too high, then fine you don't have to pay taxes any more because your dead. you don't do anything any more.

it is implied that tarkin did not even need the approval of the emperor todestroy alderann. imagine the reprecussions. this is uncontroled evil. evil with out limits. tarkin is told he can do what ever necessary to serve the needs of the empire. stop at nothing.
think of the officers on board the death star. this is a cupple of guys in a control room who essentilly pull a lever or two and oush a button and destroy a whole world. how did they sleep that night? like babies, why because they are evil bastards.

sorry for my language.

 

Well its easier to hide evil works when you control an entire galaxy isnt it. No one knew about Owen and Beru when they got crispered did they? They didnt know about the Jawas either. From ANH alone I get the picture that the Stormtroopers do whatever they want when they want, they killed Owen and Beru then the Jawas in a matter of hours!

Imagine what they did in the 18-19 years bewteen ROTS-ANH. Also, dictorship(sp?) is definitly the easiest government that can become evil and with a Sith Lord at the helm do you really doubt its evilness?

 

Is the Empire really evil?

Ep.4:

It fires upon and captures a Diplomatic vessel. It consequently boards said vessel (killing many of its crew). Captures, interrogates and murders its captain.
Upon discovering the diplomat, stuns her and arrests her. Takes said diplomat to largest battle station ever built and totures her.
Search squads set up armed road blocks and challenge all vehicles - no other law enforcement seen. Destroy farmstead.
Shot at departing space vehicle (shoot first...)
DESTROY PLANET FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN TO SEND A MESSAGE!!!!


I would go on but time is not on my side, but I think you get the idea. Also in Ep.4 Luke wants to join the Space Academy although he knows it is part of the Empire and he "hates the Empire".


[Edit: spelling]

 

You people aren't seeming to understand that the rebels aren't the nice fuzzy people the movies would have them be. They are a group of people who decided they didn't like the government and took matters into their own hands. They are terrorists and nothing more, hiding behind the guise of do-godders. Look at it from the Empire's point of view. Or better yet, look at it from a realistic point of view. What if a group in your country decided to rebel? How would the government handle it? Probably pretty similarly to the way the Empire is dealing with its rebellion. So before you all get high and mighty, consider what you would do in the same situation. Better yet, consider what you would HAVE to do.

 

i totally agree with you Darth_Arisin
great post as well

 

One person's freedom fighter is another's terrorist.

SW's rebels are terrorists only if the government is both legitimate and recognised by the people. Very few dictatorships have ever been both at the same time.

 

"SW's rebels are terrorists only if the government is both legitimate and recognised by the people. Very few dictatorships have ever been both at the same time."

The Empire is both.

 

And here is the contradiction:

If the people recognise the government, why do so many fight against it?

 

not to be rude what country are you from?

history is written by the winners. the united states was a group of people who stood up for their rights. the colonies were being taxed with out representation in the british empire. they had no say how their tax money was spent. british soldiers could show up at you door and demand food and lodging, at your expense. if fighting broke out you could be drafted into service with no warning. ships at sea could be boarded and sailers taken on board their vessels.

all in the name of the greatest empire on earth.

the rebes could be catogorized as terroists only by the empire that was being terroized. the rebels ad probibly done much like the american colonists and drafted a declaration of independence stating their intention to create a free and stable government.

yes the u.s has its faults it is by no means perfect but it is a free culture which allows it's people the liberty to make their own choices.

the rebelion can and does parrlell our own history.

 

When the empire came about, there was very little opposition. Only enough to form a small terrorist group. The empire was accepted with cheers by a great majority of the galaxy because it actually did some good. It ended the clone wars and basically brought peace to the galaxy until the damn rebels came about. If the rebels never came about, the galaxy would still be in peace, and the Death Star would never have had to been used.

 

DARTHMORDOR, whom is your post directed at?

Thanx.

 

hay hitler was elected by the german people too.slowly started to remove power from other parts of the government then declared himself dictator. sound kind of like palpitine. what hitler offered the people of germany was stibility. eh orginized the work force, got inflation under control. but he also set up a govenment based on hate and discrimantion. and the whole world had to stop him. the revolt came from without rather then from within but it's the same principle.


both you zz and darth arisen

 

"And here is the contradiction:

If the people recognise the government, why do so many fight against it?"

Again, think on a galactic scale. The opposition wasn't very big at all. The majority of the galaxy liked the Empire.

 

No it isn't the same principle. Palpatine only had the Jedi killed because they would have blocked his efforts to making peace because they didn't coincide with the "jedi" way. Besides, the jedi, so-called "good guys," fought wars to slaughter the sith because they didn't understand their ways and they feared what they didn't understand. The basic thing to remember is, Palpatine actually wanted peace. He doesn't consider himself, or the empire he created, to be evil. He saw it as the only way to end corruption in the republic and establish a long-term peace in the galaxy. Which the rebels destroyed. After the fall of the empire and during the new republic there was more chaos than that experienced from America's revolution. And back to hitler--Hitler was the source of corruption. Palpatine wanted to END corrupton. Bad analogy.

 

"hay hitler was elected by the german people too.slowly started to remove power from other parts of the government then declared himself dictator. sound kind of like palpitine. what hitler offered the people of germany was stibility. eh orginized the work force, got inflation under control. but he also set up a govenment based on hate and discrimantion. and the whole world had to stop him. the revolt came from without rather then from within but it's the same principle."

Ah, Hitler. A subject which I know quite well. You see, the parallel of Hitler and Palpatine is not a good one. Palpatine wished to end corruption withing the Republic whereas Hitler was the cause of the corruption in Germany. Germany was just dandy before President Hindenburg died.

 

palpitine was the source of the corruption.

mass ammeda, as he wispers into padmaes ear is on the pay role of the TF. guess who is serving palps pretty closly 10 YEARS after that situation. palpitine orcistrated a war on both sides to give himself the ultimate power in the universe. killing billions of people along the way. this is hardly nobel.
yes the jedi killed all the sith. and peace was established for over ONE THOUSAND YEARS. now tell me who really wants peace.

 

i found this to be a intresting case~Palpatine believes that the political order must be manipulated to produce peace and stability. When he mutters, "There is no civility, there is only politics," we see that at heart, he's an esoteric Straussian.

Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet. It's a dictatorship people can do business with. They collect taxes and patrol the skies. They try to stop organized crime (in the form of the smuggling rings run by the Hutts). The Empire has virtually no effect on the daily life of the average, law-abiding citizen.

But the most compelling evidence that the Empire isn't evil comes in "The Empire Strikes Back" when Darth Vader is battling Luke Skywalker. After an exhausting fight, Vader is poised to finish Luke off, but he stays his hand. He tries to convert Luke to the Dark Side with this simple plea: "There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you. . . . Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." It is here we find the real controlling impulse for the Dark Side and the Empire. The Empire doesn't want slaves or destruction or "evil." It wants order.


None of which is to say that the Empire isn't sometimes brutal. In Episode IV, Imperial stormtroopers kill Luke's aunt and uncle and Grand Moff Tarkin orders the destruction of an entire planet, Alderaan. But viewed in context, these acts are less brutal than they initially appear. Poor Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen reach a grisly end, but only after they aid the rebellion by hiding Luke and harboring two fugitive droids. They aren't given due process, but they are traitors.
((most nations do this indcluding the united states..))

The destruction of Alderaan is often cited as ipso facto proof of the Empire's "evilness" because it seems like mass murder--planeticide, even. As Tarkin prepares to fire the Death Star, Princess Leia implores him to spare the planet, saying, "Alderaan is peaceful. We have no weapons." Her plea is important, if true.

But no one has no reason to believe that Leia is telling the truth. In Episode IV, every bit of information she gives the Empire is willfully untrue. In the opening, she tells Darth Vader that she is on a diplomatic mission of mercy, when in fact she is on a spy mission, trying to deliver schematics of the Death Star to the Rebel Alliance. When asked where the Alliance is headquartered, she lies again.

Leia's lies are perfectly defensible--she thinks she's serving the greater good--but they make her wholly unreliable on the question of whether or not Alderaan really is peaceful and defenseless. If anything, since Leia is a high-ranking member of the rebellion and the princess of Alderaan, it would be reasonable to suspect that Alderaan is a front for Rebel activity or at least home to many more spies and insurgents like Leia.

Whatever the case, the important thing to recognize is that the Empire is not committing random acts of terror. It is engaged in a fight for the survival of its regime against a violent group of rebels who are committed to its destruction.

In all of the time we spend observing the Rebel Alliance, we never hear of their governing strategy or their plans for a post-Imperial universe. All we see are plots and fighting. Their victory over the Empire doesn't liberate the galaxy--it turns the galaxy into Somalia writ large: dominated by local warlords who are answerable to no one.

Which makes the rebels--Lucas's heroes--an unimpressive crew of anarchic royals who wreck the galaxy so that Princess Leia can have her tiara back.

I'll take the Empire.

 

And guess who disappears from the Imperial ranks? Mas Ammeda. Palpatine was NOT corrupt. He SAW corruption, and knew of a way to end it. It was a different way than the jedi saw fit, but it ultimately worked. He only wanted Peace. In the ROTS visual dictionary it says he believes himself to not even be evil but a savior, because he is not acting on evil motivations, but rather the prospect of being able to bring peace to the galaxy. Plain and simple.

 

Yes, Palpatine was corrupted in himself.
Did he not corrupt his election to become Chancellor? Did he not corrupt Jar Jar into asking for the Chancellor to be given executive powers?

Is it not a question of the level of corruption and one's perception of that corruption - Palpatine (and Hitler) both saw different kinds of corruption and both believed that their solution was the best (even if their ideals were corrupted)?

 

hitler is not a bad analogy. hitler is who lucas based palpitine on.

second germany was not fine. after wwI germany was devistated. their economy was in shambles. there are photos of people pushing wheel barrels of mony to buy their grocries. the governments of the world forced germany to pay for the damage thay did. there answer was to print more mony but this ment the money had no value. (inflation) hitler seised the opprtunity to get people excited about their country again, to orginze an army (which was outlawed by willsons league of nations).

again palpitine played both sides he was the source of the corruption. he is the senator of naboo. his wold is being blockeded by the TF, he uses them to put him in power. he has no intention of ending corruption he just says it. which is what hitler said too.

 

The point, however, is that because of the Empire, there was peace for twenty years. And it would have gone on even longer if the rebels did not start a civil war.

 

"palpitine was the source of the corruption.

mass ammeda, as he wispers into padmaes ear is on the pay role of the TF. guess who is serving palps pretty closly 10 YEARS after that situation. palpitine orcistrated a war on both sides to give himself the ultimate power in the universe. killing billions of people along the way. this is hardly nobel.
yes the jedi killed all the sith. and peace was established for over ONE THOUSAND YEARS. now tell me who really wants peace."

Palpatine was the END of the corruption. There was no proof that Mas Ameda was actually corrupt. Just because he whispered into Valorum's ear? That's circumstantial at best. Perhaps he served Palpatine for the next ten years because he was a good aide. Did you think of that? Or maybe Palpatine knew he was corrupt and was waiting for him to slip up. True, Palpatine was in charge of both fronts of the war. But he knew that without war, there can be no peace. And it worked, didn't it? Think on a galactic scale. Billions out of millions of TRILLIONS isn't really that high a price. Hardly noble? That's war. It's not pretty. But sometimes, it's the only way. The Jedi slaughtered the SIth out of ignorance. They killed them because they feared them and they feared them because they didn't understand them. THere was no war before the Jedi attacked the Sith. Who is to say the Jedi and Sith could not live peacefully in the same galaxy?

 

The Empire is evil because it says so:

Episode 4 crawler:
It is a period of civil war. Rebel spacships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire.


Gotto to say goodbye, getting late, thanx for the chat.

 

I guess that's the best way to say it.