Is the Empire really evil?

"hitler is not a bad analogy. hitler is who lucas based palpitine on."

Actually, Lucas based Palpatine off of President Nixon, not Adolf Hitler. It says so in Lucas' biography. Don't make crap up.

"second germany was not fine. after wwI germany was devistated. their economy was in shambles. there are photos of people pushing wheel barrels of mony to buy their grocries. the governments of the world forced germany to pay for the damage thay did. there answer was to print more mony but this ment the money had no value. (inflation) hitler seised the opprtunity to get people excited about their country again, to orginze an army (which was outlawed by willsons league of nations)."

None of that has to do with corruption. Germany was not corrupt until Hitler rose to power.

"again palpitine played both sides he was the source of the corruption. he is the senator of naboo. his wold is being blockeded by the TF, he uses them to put him in power. he has no intention of ending corruption he just says it. which is what hitler said too."

Hitler didn't think he was corrupt, ergo, would not have said he would put an end to it. Palpatine knew the Republic was corrupt and DID put an end to it. Palpatine the man was corrupt AT TIMES. However, he did away with corruption within the government, which is exactly what he said he would do.

 

First of all, WWI had nothing to do with Hitler, by the way. You might have meant WWII, but even then, the result on the germans was not due to Hitler. It was because of the Invading powers and how they felt the German people should be treated and dealt with as a result of the war. It was a result of the conflict between the soviet union and the Allies. Hitler did not make the lives of the germans worse. He made them better. It's hard to see that because of his actions against the jews. The only parallel to palpatine there is his action against the jedi, but that was a necessary step to peace, and they were just as much killers as the sith were.

 

I have to say this is the best debate I have had on any board in years. thanks guys

but to claim that palpitine was seeking the greater good is just blind. of course he feels justified he wants order. his kind of order.
they try to stop orginized crime for the same reason any government does because it's non taxable money. the hutts are outside the government.

but look at tatooine in anh there is a strong imperial presence there. yet the hutts still exist. why?

owen and baru are the perfect example of the evil of the empire. they were completly unaware of their role with the droids. yet their house was burned and they were executed. the empire can do this because who's going to stop them.

the rebellion. they at least want people to be free of the oppresion of the empire. free of the fear.

 

plokoon

I did mean wwI and the disarray germany was in after it. and the the years that followed which hitler manouverd himself to become the dictator.

and by the way the jews were not the only one extermanated by the nazis. anybody was subject. blond hair blue eyes, prety much the only truly safe people. gyspises gays, jews and even christians.

 

Fear keeps people in line, and ultimately leads to peace. True, it is not the most orthodox way to keep peace, but it did. And Owen and Beru resulted from a necessary action that came from actions of the REBELS. they stole imperial plans, and those plans were believed to be on tatooine. They needed to be found, and i will admit that it was not the most kind way of dealing with it, but it would have worked had R2 been in the homestead or sandcrawler. Just because Palpatine orders things like this to deal with a serious problem it doesn't automatically classify the empire as evil. He is mostly a benevolent dictator, who understands that sometimes you need to resort to such matters to ensure the overall safety and security of the rest of the galaxy.

 

I'm changing my sig!

 

Miss Wendy, you are an angel.

 

Please reply to what Zee Zee said, Arisin, if it's alright. I'd like to hear your answer.

 

I know my history very well, there is no need to lecture me on it, thank you. And like i said, the result of WWI on the german people allowing hitler to rise to power was due to the allied forces decision to make german pay for the war. if the treaty of Versailles never existed, germany might have been a much better place and would not have required someone to rise to power to fix their problems. Palpatine knew of a way to get the republic free of corruption, so he went about forming his empire. And like i keep saying, it resulted in peace until the rebel alliance, which was actually a very small minority in the galaxy, came about.

 

"owen and baru are the perfect example of the evil of the empire. they were completly unaware of their role with the droids. yet their house was burned and they were executed. the empire can do this because who's going to stop them. "

Perhaps they were ignorant concerning the droids and perhaps ther weren't. They both had come in contact with the droids before. There IS a connection. But they were NOT ignorant of Luke. They knew what he was and who he was from the moment they accepted him as their own.

 

ok would you want to live in a govenmnent that can show up and demand some plans to a battle station you have never heard of and when you try to convay this message thay kill you wife. then as you try to explain that you still don't know what they are talking about burn your house down. they then give you one last chance "whare are the plans?"

you on your knees crying over the body of your wife have nothing more to say except that "I don't know what you want from me"

and thay shot you.

read some kafka some time. start with the trial.

how effective is a government that does not even need to tell you what you are accused of.

would you like to live in that world? thay could come knocking now. you would have no warning.
here you are typing a message on the computer and your doors kicked in by a buch of guys in white tell you that you stole a candy bar from the 711. thay hanh you from your own fan because thay found a twix wrapper in your trash can.

that is the evil of the empire.

 

"The Empire is evil because it says so:

Episode 4 crawler:
It is a period of civil war. Rebel spacships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire.


Gotto to say goodbye, getting late, thanx for the chat."

The opening crawl is from the rebels' point of view. Of course it would say the Empire is evil. Plus, it's an old movie trick. The general population wants to see the underdog come out on top. Most people would not like to see a movie with a huge government beating a small group into the ground, however realistic it may be. Naturally, the big group that is being rebelled against would be classified as "evil" and the underdog group would be classified as "good." No one would see the movies if it was the Empire (good) against the rebels (bad).

 

Or maybe it's because the leader of the Galactic Empire is evil and the Empire itself is simply corrupt.

 

Twix bar and plans to a secret space station are a little bit different. Especially since they KNEW the droids had the plans and that those droids were sold to the Lars family. Besides, the instance of the droids and plans were the only times we see the empire killing supposedly innocent people. Other than them, the only people killed were rebels, aka terrorists. Wow, seems really similar to the U.S. doesn't it? How many people do you think have been authorized to be killed by the U.S. government in secret? Are we an evil empire too because of these actions? No. It is simply a means to an end, and some may disagree, but it is a reality that is necessary sometimes. Hence the term necessary evil.

 

the comparrison is the obserdity. they bought droids from jawas. there are no questions asked as to where they came from. the plans were hiddn in the droids so the owners are most likly unaware of any ill will towards the government. as a matter of fact luke just stumbled upon it. r2 had no intrest in letting luke know of the plans and he escaped the moment he had the chance. the lars were hapless victims of a police force who answers to nobody.

 

--Or maybe it's because the leader of the Galactic Empire is evil and the Empire itself is simply corrupt--

Yet he doesn't claim to be evil. He only wants peace. And he is seen as a savior, not an evil dictator. Who opposes him? The senator from a planet against violence. If he never started a rebel alliance there is a good chance that nobody else would have, because they appreciated the security that the empire provided in light of what happened because of the republic, namely the clone wars. And yes, palpatine can be blamed for starting those, but like i said, he needed the ability to thin out the jedi to be able to achieve his vision of a peaceful galaxy. And he got it. Until the rebels came. Are you going to go out and try to bomb the president's plane? No. Why? Because then you look like a terrorist. Just like the rebels.

 

and as we are seeing now the cia and the army are paying for any torture they may have commited. granted only because they got cought. but they are in fact being punished and people are watching closer.

no government is perfect but we have checks and balences to at least attempt to prevent things from getting out of control.

I happen to have a real problem with our government right now. we had our chance to change it last november. turns out more people seem to like it the way it is. am I going to revolt? no because I know deep down the system does work. just not very fast.

Strilo edit: Let's avoid going into current politics...

 

"ok would you want to live in a govenmnent that can show up and demand some plans to a battle station you have never heard of and when you try to convay this message thay kill you wife. then as you try to explain that you still don't know what they are talking about burn your house down. they then give you one last chance "whare are the plans?"

you on your knees crying over the body of your wife have nothing more to say except that "I don't know what you want from me"

and thay shot you.

read some kafka some time. start with the trial.

how effective is a government that does not even need to tell you what you are accused of. "

First off, you hypothesizing what happened. YOu weren't there, none of us were. How do you know Owen didn't start blasting first, huh? We wouldn't see ST bodies because they would have taken them back to town. But it's quite possible that the Larses began the violence. And you don't know they weren't officially charged.

 

the galexy had already been at peace for over 1000 years. what peace was he trying to achive. yes the government was bloated and had problems of corruption but there is evidence to support he was the root of it.

 

--I happen to have a real problem with our government right now. we had our chance to change it last november. turns out more people seem to like it the way it is. am I going to revolt? no because I know deep down the system does work. just not very fast.--

I'm going to have to agree with you there. For once. face_wink

 

"the comparrison is the obserdity. they bought droids from jawas. there are no questions asked as to where they came from. the plans were hiddn in the droids so the owners are most likly unaware of any ill will towards the government. as a matter of fact luke just stumbled upon it. r2 had no intrest in letting luke know of the plans and he escaped the moment he had the chance. the lars were hapless victims of a police force who answers to nobody."

The Larses were privy to the fact that the droids were stolen, however. Being in possession of stolen property is a crime. Knowing that it's stolen compunds the crime. They could have been taken in for that alone. Whether they harbored ill will against the Empire is meaningless. They were in possession of traitorous material and had no proof that they weren;t involved. Look at it from the STs point of view

 

Well, their leaders are evil, but are they evil? From the EU they are, they commit countless atrocities. But from just the films, I'd say they're kinda like the Roman Empire at its height.They have overwhelming military force. If you don't like something they do, you keep quiet about it or get punished. But they keep order and if you stay out of their way they'll stay out of yours.

 

^^^^well said

 

I prefer to look at from the view of the innocent victim.
if the lars did start shooting where is the evidence of that?

lets go to mos esly. storm troopes walk into the hanger of the falcon and immedly shout "stop that ship, blast him" han has done nothing. and in self prservation shoots back. the st shoot first and never bother to ask questions.

yeas he was aiding two rebels in their escape.
but they could have approached him and boarded his ship takenthe prisnors and all would be finished. whould han have started shooting right away? no. the ST would have been a lot closer and been able to hit him.

 

"the galexy had already been at peace for over 1000 years. what peace was he trying to achive. yes the government was bloated and had problems of corruption but there is evidence to support he was the root of it."

He wasn't so much for peace as he was for putting an end to corruption. The only way to do that was with war. All the events played out in the movies were carefully planned by Palpatine. In the end, he knew that the corruption would be gone and peace would fall permanently over the galaxy.