Is the Empire really evil?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Quixotic-Sith, Apr 8, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: Bazinga'd
  1. Battlemaiden Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2005
    star 1
    I'm glad to know that there are people out there who advocate military dictatorships and order with a gun. It makes me feel so confident in our future.

    And you point out that the Rebellion destroys Imperial property. The Empire destroys whole planets. What's your point?
  2. plokoon_da_sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2005
    star 1
    ---- How can Lucas be bias? Its his bloody story!
    Its not like he took a part of history and put it on screen from his POV.----

    Well, i'm sorry, but his belief of the empire does not seem true for me personally, or for many others. Many people saw the necessity for the empire and the security it provided and can see the rebels as nothing because terrorists. The empire as a whole may give off a sense of being evil to some, but many governments, when looked at from a different point of view can be seen as evil as well. It is only a way for those who do not agree to justify the acts of the rebels. The empire only acted upon citizens when they refused to comply with it. The people voted the empire into power, and it was their responsibility to follow the laws of it.
  3. plokoon_da_sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2005
    star 1
    ---I'm glad to know that there are people out there who advocate military dictatorships and order with a gun. It makes me feel so confident in our future.---

    good for you. I advocate something that works. And the empire worked. Until the rebels came and established a new republic that just introduced a lot of chaos and instability that the empire had tried to rid the galaxy of.
  4. TheForgottenJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2004
    star 4
    So your telling me that you know more about a fantasy story someone else made?

    Lucas couldve spent half of ANH showing how evil the Empire is but instead he simply put it right there in writing. Your looking far too much into this.
  5. plokoon_da_sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2005
    star 1
    I'm simply stating my belief based on what i've seen and read into the matter.
  6. Battlemaiden Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2005
    star 1
    >good for you. I advocate something that works. And >the empire worked. Until the rebels came and >established a new republic that just introduced a lot >of chaos and instability that the empire had tried to >rid the galaxy of.

    If you believe that the Empire "worked," then more power to you. But I invite you to read 1984, Lenin's Tomb, or any of the hundred zillion books about the Nazi Regime.

    Did these powers "work?" They were relegated to the ash-heap of history by a people who finally got tired of being stepped on and pushed back. They were all "legitimately created," but when a government goes beyond its mandate and begins to actively terrorize its own people, something must be done.

    This isn't about whether a fictional power was "evil" or not. It's about your disturbing belief that a military dictatorship and state-sponsored terror is somehow a legitimate way to run a government.
  7. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Reminder: Spoilers are NOT allowed in this forum outside the PT Spoilers thread. Also, ANYTHING released by Lucasfilm or any other source after 4/2 is considered a spoiler. Books, commercials, you name it. All spoilers until May 23rd.

  8. Bacon164 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 7
    Tell me this. Why does everyone in the galaxy cheer after the death of the Empire? [face_mischief]
  9. Darth_Arisin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2005
    star 1
    "You do know Palpatine was the reason for the corruption right?"

    You do know that you're very ignorant, right? Palpatine ENDED the corruption. However, the movies were shown from one point of view. THat's called "bias." That means we don't see the true story. We see someone corrupt by one point of view. Look at it as a whole. Palpatine was not corrupt. Everything he did was perfectly legal. And very few had any complaints. The majority truly liked the Empire and what it provided for the people.

    "Tell me this. Why does everyone in the galaxy cheer after the death of the Empire?"

    They showed exactly 4 worlds. Four out of well over a million. That's hardly the entire galaxy. Learn some math.

    Strilo edit: Learn some manners. Calling someone ignorant and telling them to learn some math is borderline flaming and not very friendly posting. Let's watch this shall we?
  10. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Arasin I asked you not to post back to back posts. Just hit EDIT and add to your post if you think of something to add.

  11. Battlemaiden Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2005
    star 1
    I've already said this a bunch but..

    1. The annihilation of a planet because it is "out of line" is not legal. Evidence suggests that the Emperor not only condoned Tarkin's action, but actively supported and liked it.

    2. The Empire runs a machine of state terror, epitomized by Tarkin's doctrine of rule by fear. The Stormtroopers and Imperial Sector Fleets were enforcers to that effect.

    3. Please show me evidence that the majority of the people loved the Empire, because I can show you evidence that the majority rather *disliked* the Empire, starting with the cheering at the end of ROTJ and going to the general sense of arrogance and bitterness that the term "Empire" brought to pretty much everybody who appears in the Expanded Universe. The Empire was not especially well-liked.

    Rebellions do not start in stable, lawful states. They start when people believe that they have a legitimate grievance. In this case, the Empire's heavy taxation, state apparatus of terror, bombing of civilized planets and overall corruption (I'm not even talking Palpatine, I'm talking his myriad of Moffs).

    The Empire was, in short, a fascist state. What does fascism entail? I'll let you decide that for yourself.

    And as for it being from "one-point of view," what a ridiculous statement. The story was written by George Lucas. It's not actual history. The Empire is written to be the epitome of the fascist state, the absolute worst case scenario for Galactic government. There is no "other side."
  12. plddc1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2005
    You do know that you're very ignorant, right? Palpatine ENDED the corruption.

    I suppose that, by that definition, if George W. Bush were to single-handedly "end corruption" in the U.S. Congress by unconstitutionally shutting it down, we'd give him credit for "ending corruption?" I suppose it's no more or less absurd than giving someone credit for "bringing security" when he ends a war that he himself started and, in fact, commanded both sides during.

    Strilo edit: I already warned once for people to leave current politics out of this. Please read the thread before posting.

    Look at it as a whole. Palpatine was not corrupt. Everything he did was perfectly legal. And very few had any complaints.

    Everything Hitler did was legal as well. That doesn't mean it was moral, ethical, or good for the world. (Or even for Germany, or Europe. In fact, it was bad for both.) And of course there weren't many complaints; complaints got you deported or shot.

    In any case, I suspect that Lucas's showing Senators cheering at each stage of Palpatine's ascent to power is more a comment on people's willingness to let themselves be led astray by charismatic evil as long as it provides what they perceive as stability. I, on the other hand, am reminded of Benjamin Franklin's (another "terrorist" who fought against an unjust government) maxim that those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither.
  13. black_saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    From what I heard in the EU and Lucas they set up some concertion camps for aliens and other kinds of humans too.

    Empire=Nazism
  14. TheForgottenJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2004
    star 4
    You do know that you're very ignorant, right? Palpatine ENDED the corruption. However, the movies were shown from one point of view. THat's called "bias."

    Ill let the flame go this time Arisin cause your a noob. Bias? I already went over this with plokoon, Lucas created, say it with me, CREATED this story. Theres no bias even if he for some reason wanted too.
    Its simply how he created the story, a simple movie trilogy about good and evil. Star Wars would have had to have happened for the movies to be bias.

    Now I hope you grabbed the concept that Luke Skywalker is the good guy thus the guys he is fighting would be bad guys! Who does he fight again.........oh right, the EMPIRE!

    Strilo edit: Now now... calling someone a noob is not very nice.
  15. DARTHMORDOR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2003
    star 4
    I thought arisin an koon were just having some fun and taking on the devis advocate. but this has gone too far.

    guys these are movies told to represent certin concepts of good vs. evil. the empire was desigined to give the apprence and be commpletly recingnized as total evil. there could be no bluring of the lines.

    I enjoyed the argument that ranged into real world plolitics but it has become clear you don't know what your talking about. you live in the most free country in the world and act as though we need to change it to be less free for our own protection.

    you two scare the crap out of me.
  16. Boola Cronk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 1999
    star 2
    I thought this was a spoiler free forum. On one of the earlier pages, someone just revealed some things about ROTS. I guess the mods aren't really monitoring this forum.
  17. DARTHMORDOR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2003
    star 4
    they have been pretty good for the most part I think one did get through. they removed a buch yesterday.


    on that note to finish my point about the evilness of the empire.

    over at sci fi wire they have an interview with iian mcdiormand. basicly spells it out how evil the emperor is and his motivation for greed and power and that it does not matter who gets hurt as long as he gets what he wants.

    I guess it is tecnicly a spoiler but pretty odvious stuff but if you check it be warned.
  18. Darth_Arisin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2005
    star 1
    "From what I heard in the EU and Lucas they set up some concertion camps for aliens and other kinds of humans too.

    Empire=Nazism"

    Not quite. No concentration camps were ever set up by Palpatine or Lucas or anyone.

    "Ill let the flame go this time Arisin cause your a noob."

    Excuse me? A 'noob?' I am more than somewhat insulted by that. YOu assume that because I am new to these boards (which I am, in fact, NOT), I don't understand the relatively simple concepts that go along with posting. Why do you assume that because I am new, I don't understand Star Wars? I understand it much more than you could possibly ever hope to.
  19. Darth_Arisin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2005
    star 1
    "I thought arisin an koon were just having some fun and taking on the devis advocate. but this has gone too far."

    I don't know about Plo Koon, but I was being 100% serious. I wasn't putting on any kind of show. Those are really my beliefs.

    "guys these are movies told to represent certin concepts of good vs. evil. the empire was desigined to give the apprence and be commpletly recingnized as total evil. there could be no bluring of the lines."

    True, but the point of this disuccion is to look at it as though it were real. As though everything we've seen on screen were true and happeneing somewhere. It's a hypothetical topic.

    "I enjoyed the argument that ranged into real world plolitics but it has become clear you don't know what your talking about. you live in the most free country in the world and act as though we need to change it to be less free for our own protection."

    I said nothing of the sort and neither did Koon. And I know a great deal what I'm talking about. If the situation were 100% identical, i.e. Republic, Jedi, etc...I would support Palpatine. What he did was unorthodox but it worked. The Jedi like to wait for a solution to present itself whereas the Sith go straight to the heart of the problem and fix it. I see nothing that needs to change, other than leadership, in this country. I know my freedoms. I appreciate them. The Imperial citizens, however, likely have even more freedom.

    "you two scare the crap out of me."

    Not the original point, but ok.





    "I thought this was a spoiler free forum. On one of the earlier pages, someone just revealed some things about ROTS. I guess the mods aren't really monitoring this forum."

    Actually, the mods are monitoring this board pretty well. Some might say too well.
  20. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    ARISIN! What must I do to get your attention? PMs are not working and posting in the thread is not working. Must I ban you in order for you to STOP posting things back to back all the time? Now here you are insulting people and calling them ignorant? You need to cool it a little and listen when a moderator gives you a suggestion or a warning.

    Now as for the rest of you... the personal digs stop here. We discuss the films here, NOT the fans. "You people scare me" calling people noobs or ignorant are NOT ok. This discussion gets back on the up and up now. Or all of you can answer to Quix for getting his thread locked.

  21. PhantomDude Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2005
    <<<<<It showed exactly four worlds. That's hardly the entire galaxy. Learn some math.>>>>>

    Math sucks. Don't forget that Coruscant is the capital of the galaxy.
  22. DARTHMORDOR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2003
    star 4
    strilo,hay I am sorry. won't happen again.


    the reason "most" people in the GFFA accepted the empire was not because thay wanted it but it just sort of happened. for most it was they went to bed we were the republic, woke up in the morining and now were an empire. ok.

    at first there were no reall changes, but as time passed and the true agenda of the emperor was revealed then people started to pull away.

    it takes a lot to motivate any group of people to start a civil war. I do'nt think it was just a few senators who really got the war started. regular people had to be speaking up voicing their disatifaction.
    fighting is always a last resort. when your backed into a cornor.
    that is what has happemed to the average person in the empire. they fear. fear to speak out against the government.
    great thing about this place is we can freely critizie our leaders and no fear of retrubution. in the empire you ge your planet blown up.

    I want to move there.
  23. Harabec Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2001
    star 4
    Don't keep goading Strilo. He's a fighter, not a lover.

    Anyhoo, I would have to think that any political entity that curtails the rights of the populace, obliterates defenseless planets and their populations, and constructs war machines bearing the names "Star DESTROYER" and "DEATH Star" may be more than just a little bit on the evil side.

    Let's not forget that the guy running this utopian society orchestrated wars, assassinations, and what basically amounts to genocide (Jedi purge) in order to elevate himself to the position of dictator. Now that isn't very nice at all.
  24. Darth_Arisin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2005
    star 1
    "Anyhoo, I would have to think that any political entity that curtails the rights of the populace, obliterates defenseless planets and their populations, and constructs war machines bearing the names "Star DESTROYER" and "DEATH Star" may be more than just a little bit on the evil side."

    Let it be known, the Victory-class Star Destroyer was put into service long before the EMpire was formed. And it was called a "Star Destroyer." And what else would they have called the Death Star? Moonbeam 1 and Moonbeam 2? C'mon. All militaries give fierce and intimidating names to their weapons. Sidewinder missles wouldn't be half as intimidating if they were called something like X-32s.

    "Let's not forget that the guy running this utopian society orchestrated wars, assassinations, and what basically amounts to genocide (Jedi purge) in order to elevate himself to the position of dictator. Now that isn't very nice at all."

    Sometimes, you need to put aside what's "nice" and do what needs to be done. Read the EP3 book and you'll understand just why the Jedi needed to go, how important the war was, and just why those people needed assassination. As our mod is ripe with zeal concerning spoilers, I'll say no more. Don't wanna end up like Koon. :)
  25. Darth_Digital Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 4
    Is the Empire Evil? Good question.

    George Lucas says so. I wonder why?...

    ;)

    Star Wars:

    'Delusions of Grandeur.'

    It was 1963 when it happened. George Walton Lucas Jr. A idealistic young man of 23 was minding his own business one mild evening in Modesto California when he had a chance encounter with a greater destiny.

    A young man dressed all in black, sporting short blonde hair approached him. And he said; "The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master."

    "A master of what?" Curious George had asked.

    "In another time and place you might have said 'evil' but thanks to your future actions you'll see its the exact opposite." Replied the man in black with a chuckle.

    "Future?" Echoed Lucas.

    And therin laid the irony of the man's question. For the man with blonde hair stated that he was from what on George's calendar would be the year 2005.

    The new millenium.

    A fellow who'd come back in time with the help of spectatular technology to establish contact with a man he'd learned to see as a great General.

    Naturally young George had thought the man was smoking too much reefer but humoured him nonetheless. Lucas changed his tone soon enough however when the young man in black keyed his flashy looking 'wrist watch' and stared in total awe as what appeared to be a sleek looking aircraft of sorts appear from above and lower itself to the ground by a means beyond modern science.

    Like a Falcon, this airship landed and a ramp lowered inviting the young man aboard.

    The man with blonde hair smiled; "She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts 'kid'" He said with a touch of irony. "But I've made some special modifications myself. But, we appear a little rushed, so if you'll just get on board, we'll get out of here."

    At first Lucas hesitated, but he'd seen his fair share of sci-fi when he was a kid, and wether this strangely dressed man was Buck Rogers or Flash Gordon, he certainly wasn't a little green man with pointy ears. So why not?

    The two boarded this apparent Falcon from an new Millenium and was equally impressed by the interior. Flashy lights, colored screens, strange upholstry, this ship had it all.

    And then Lucas was escorted to the cockpit of the ship. Much like a Lancaster from World War II, this ship's pilots area was just as wonderous.

    And quick. No sooner had they strapped in to comfortable accelerator chairs had the man in black keyed for forward momentum. "Stand by to make the jump to Lightspeed."

    Lucas frowned. "Lightspeed?"

    And with that, George's question was answered as directly ahead, beyond the confines of the circular window a flashy hue of bright blue-white appeared suddenly-

    And enveloped the ship!

    A vortex of blue energy spiraled around the ship and just as suddenly did it appear, it now vanished.

    And was replaced by a stary night sky with an abundance of diamond pin pricks. George's eyes went wider still. They were in space!

    In orbit of Earth to be specific and heading straight for its celestial neighbour.

    The moon.

    "That's our Battlestation." The man in black explained as he piloted towards the central mass.

    "The moon?" Frowned Lucas. "A battle station?"

    The man in black flashed a crooked smile. "Trust me."

    Within minutes, the ship had attened a interior landing bay of sort, carved from the very surface of the lunar body. They landed.

    "Come." The man in black invited George. "Your about to take your first steps into a larger world."

    A quick tour of the facility followed. And everywhere they went, the people within this lunar station was staring at George. He couldn't believe it!

    One even dared to run up and paw away at him exclaiming; "Ben? Ben Kenobi? Boy am I glad to see you!"

    Naturally, the man in black shooed the other away with a laugh and made it clear to the others that George was to be treated as an honored guest.

    Geroge was suddenly getting a dry throat and asked if he could get some water. Naturally, the man in black was happy to obligue him
Moderators: Bazinga'd
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.