Is the Empire really evil?

George fought back a bought of nuasea as the man garbed in a dark tunic with high black boots finished the tale.

He took it very well.

"I think I'm going to throw up." He managed.

"Its true." Pressed the man in black. "After Vietnam it just got worse, an economic disaster brought about by corporate greed and the suppression of rights and freedoms."

Watergate.
Fight the power.
Ban the bomb.

Society had apparently gone through many changes since the mid 60's. Certainly things were already well underway, but with the Vietnam war in its death throes by the mid 70's.

Senators standing down under threat of empeachment.
United States leaders creating wars to maintain their hold in public office.

It was like 1938 all over again, only the war was turning civl.

Another American Civil war. Only the weapons were media based. Weapons of Mass Destruction ram rampid. Technological terrors in league with super computers and black operations with the intent to secure natural resources from lesser nations.

The man in black had visual aides too.

Footage of American troops patroling desert environs securing small towns. Shoot outs with the locals. Special forces suppressing attempts at free speech. Homes being overrun, civilians killed in the apparent cross fire.

The future was looking pretty dark.

Well the cold war was over at least, George mused. Of course that was cause some future president, what was his name? Gunray? Raygun?

Reagan! Yeah, that was it. Some actor turned President used ecomonic pressure to buy out the Soviet Union.

The British Empire wasn't looking that good either.

For all intents in purposes, the American way had brought a sense of order to the World.

Save for insurrections and rebellions here and there.

To which the American armed forces delt with that time and time again.

"Where do you come in?" Lucas asked at last.

The man in black shrugged. "Wasn't my idea." He murmured. "You see, believe it or not, its not the American's fault."

George blinked. After viewing these historical recordings it seemed apparent enough that his governemnt in the future was no better then Nazi Germany. "Can you explain that?"

The other nodded and laid it all out. "Sure," He said easily enough and took a measured sip of his drink. "Back in the early 20th century when radio technology was first introduced, a space faring energy field. A intelligent 'Force' if you will that was passing through our solar system noted the beginnings of technological expansion on Earth and attempted to bring about the planets destruction after consuming all our natural resources."

George was totally confused now. "A 'Force?" He echoed.

"Yeah," The other replied. "Like I said, an energy field created by the energy of living beings that attempted to surround us, penetrate us. Control out very destiny. Fortunately for us it stopped when it stumbled across a 'curiosity of sorts'"

And again the man out of his own time look confused. "And that was?"

The man in black smiled. "You."

"Me?"

The other nodded. "You." The man in black downed the rest of his contents. "Apparently a series of transmissions beamed through space by you was intercepted containing secret plans to destory this living 'Force'."

"What kind of transmissions?"

The man in black nodded to the holographic barkeep for another drink. "Movie transmissions."

"I don't understand."

Taking another swig of his exotic drink, the man in black nodded. "With time and training George you will."

And the history lesson continued.

Apparently this living 'Force' at its heart was an artifical life form. A probe of sorts that existed out of the space time continium that was heir to living technology. It had the power of creation not based on organic matter but that of energy. To create miraculaous or destructive devices;

Or tools. Or even people.

Well robots more specifically. Programable people. Slaves.

Exactly what this 'Force' had in mind for humanity before its destruction.

Pockets of humanity around the wo

 

Interesting topic. Personally, I don't see the Empire as an entire entity as evil. What I mean is that it's virtually impossible for any regime, empire, democracy, or otherwise to have a whole bunch of people enlisted that all believe in total darkness and powerful rule. In many ways, the Empire is the product of a few bad apples, a lot more mislead or tricked pears, fighting a boatload of sour grapes.

To liken the Rebels to "terrorists" is off-base. The Rebels have been fighting the regime change since the beginning in ROTS (thought they were not formally constructed and labeled), and it's well-known within the PT that the Old Republic was a corrupt regime falling apart from the inside.

Someone mentioned that Palpatine ended the corruption. Well, yes and no. He sure did end it, but only becausee he was more corrupt than the whole party. He used everyone and turned them against people. He used evil to crush the innocent for his own machinations. At no point was he trying to cure the Old Republic... he was merely accelerating the cancerous growth from within to construct his own, equally if not more corrupted government system. At no point is wiping out Senator power and function by replacing it with Grand Moff's that essentially only answer to him a form of "non-corruption." He's curing Senatorial corruption with Grand Moff and Imperial Fleet corruption.

The Empire itself however is massive and probably not as bad. ROTJ shows the celebration scenes, and while yes it is cartoony and doesn't show off the horrors of war still raging, it's clear that on places like Coruscant that the Empire really was being held together by the Sith and a small enclave of Moff's and Admirals. This to me indicates that the fight was still worth it. The Rebels knew that the Empire itself was being led by evil itself.

We can compare the Empire to real day entities, but I think the difference here for us is that many of those regimes are now years beyond the founders. For instance, if we were to say some things about the US and how destructive its take over of the North American continent was, on the other hand you have to point out that we're several hundred years later into the future of that. The leaders pressing "manifest destiny" are dead. This doesn't mean there's no more corruption, and it doesn't justify existence, but we're also well beyond the "let's take it back" phase. What is there to take back? Who are you going to fight. The bad guy's children's children's children?

The Empire, on the other hand, is only twenty years ahead, and is specifically controlled by two super-beings who practice the culling of other super-beings to keep in power. And they use a small inner-circle to rule an entire galaxy. It'll take much longer for all of those elements, both on the bad and good side, to phase out and just leave the aftermath. So war, in that case, is somewhat justified, even if it is rather ugly.

But why do we worry so much? The Rebels weren't winning the war. They weren't going to win either. The Force moved an dchanged things, not the direct warefforts of the Rebellion (although they had a large part to play when the time was right). In the end, the Empire wasn't ever destroyed. It was simply reformed. Call it a hostile government changed, blessed by the Force itself.

 

Alright well this seems to be more than just a debate about Star Wars to Arisin (not a "dig" simply stating my observation).

I gotta ask you question Arisin, say you come across two boys fighting over a choclate bar, what do you do? Assuming you have to do something;

1.Break it up and find out whats the problem
2.Find a second choclate bar and offer it
3.Beat them both up and take the bar


Iam interested to hear your response on this in light of what you believe to be a good government.



Thanks for that post Doctor_SuperJedi, I liked how you managed to get across two points of view without being contradicting.

 

"Alright well this seems to be more than just a debate about Star Wars to Arisin (not a "dig" simply stating my observation).

I gotta ask you question Arisin, say you come across two boys fighting over a choclate bar, what do you do? Assuming you have to do something;

1.Break it up and find out whats the problem
2.Find a second choclate bar and offer it
3.Beat them both up and take the bar


Iam interested to hear your response on this in light of what you believe to be a good government.



Thanks for that post Doctor_SuperJedi, I liked how you managed to get across two points of view without being contradicting."

I would need to find the details first. Who bought the bar? Who did it rightfully belong to? I would stop the fight and find out all the details before making a ruling. Not that I would really have any right to make any sort of ruling in the first place. Not my fight. If no happy medium could be found, I would leave them to figure it out themselves as, again, not my fight. What response did you expect me to pick, out of curiosity? What was this supposed to prove?

 

Iam not attempting to prove anything, Iam simply curious how someone who believes a miliarity government can work, would react to a very simple situation where there are multiple ways of handling it.

I posted the question with "assuming you had to do something". If it was me I would definitly pick #1.
Democracy is the way to do things in my book.

 

If anyone's really interested in why Darth Arisin is wrong about what really works and what doesn't, and what's best and what isn't, look up the standard of living/quality of life/freedom/happiness indices for countries around the world. (Freedom House -- http://www.freedomhouse.org/ -- is a good place to start.) The list for any of those indices will be, invariably, led by Western-style liberal democracies and trailed by military juntas and dictatorships. Every time.

 

"If anyone's really interested in why Darth Arisin is wrong about what really works and what doesn't, and what's best and what isn't, look up the standard of living/quality of life/freedom/happiness indices for countries around the world. (Freedom House -- http://www.freedomhouse.org/ -- is a good place to start.) The list for any of those indices will be, invariably, led by Western-style liberal democracies and trailed by military juntas and dictatorships. Every time."

You know, that really made you seem like an ass and was very insulting. I think our mod should pick you up for that. In fact, it would be irresponsible if he didn't. If you want to say things like that, use the private messages offered. I've made a very good case proving my opinion, but that's beside the point. The point is that that's all it is: an opinion. There is no right or wrong. You're an incredibly rude and utterly tactless person to post such a message.

 

well opinion is not harmless. how do you choose to act upon your opinion can effect many people. hitler had an opinion, stalin, mao, ginghas kahn, etc.

these are people you sem to admire, at least in how they rule not neceassarly in therir policies.


I walk away from this thread it has made me a mean person. I don't like the feeling.

 

When the empire is formed, Palpatine and Anakin are considered heroes of the Government. Untill the Galaxy saw how far they were pushing them. Liken it to Adolf Hitler. When Hitler came to power, he was considered a hero. He was loved by everyone. Untill Jewish neighbors started disappearing. When you replace one corrupt government, now matter how much the new government might be, you are going to cheer. Then all the dread will set in. The reason very few star systems rebelled, is because of the fear instilled in them by the Emperor and Darth Vader.

 

"well opinion is not harmless. how do you choose to act upon your opinion can effect many people. hitler had an opinion, stalin, mao, ginghas kahn, etc.

these are people you sem to admire, at least in how they rule not neceassarly in therir policies."

Actually, opinions ARE harmless. It's all about how you act on them. How many of us have been of the opinion that someone is so annoying, you felt they should just disappear? I'm sure we've all felt that at one time or another. That is perfectly harmless. Now, if you start actually making them disappear, that's when we get into trouble. I do admire Palptine. Not so much Vader. Vader kills needlessly. Palptine does what must be done. You really have to get over the fact that they are not here. That galaxy plays by different rules. What is acceptable there may not be acceptable here. It's a whole other universe. What works there, i.e. the Empire, wouldn't necessarily work here because there are an infinite number of different variables in their equation.

 

Honestly, saying another user is wrong is not in and of itself against the rules. It's how one says it. In my opinion, plddc1 is not out of line in his comment. So long as the person is polite they can tell you that you are wrong if they believe that.

Now, let's try to get this thread back on track shall we? Let's remember to discuss the films not the fans.

 

What makes the Empire evil is that it was founded on corruption, deception, and murder.

 

I dunno, it's hard for me to believe that they are good when the acceptable punishment for an ultimately temporary failure is strangulation...

If you count the EU, they also landed a ship on peaceful protestors.

Ceratainly, some of the lower officers were decent. But the Emperor was evil and the methods he used to gain power were unacceptable.

 

Gentlemen, don't waste your breath "debating" Arisin. To see what I mean check out the 'Sith Power' thread in ROTS spoilers. Trust me, it'll make you chuckle.

Strilo edit: Baiting another user is not very nice.

 

---Gentlemen, don't waste your breath "debating" Arisin. To see what I mean check out the 'Sith Power' thread in ROTS spoilers. Trust me, it'll make you chuckle.---

Was there any point to that comment? If you don't plan on discussing the topic, you should keep personal jabs to yourself. Otherwise you look unbelievably rude. And a little immature.

Anyway, just because i said i supported the empire in no way meant i support a military dictatorship in our world. I was talking about the Star Wars Universe, which, last time i checked, is NOT this one. So just because someone has one opinion about something that is fictional does not mean that they have that same opinion about real life.

 

(((I know my history very well, there is no need to lecture me on it, thank you. And like i said, the result of WWI on the german people allowing hitler to rise to power was due to the allied forces decision to make german pay for the war. if the treaty of Versailles never existed, germany might have been a much better place and would not have required someone to rise to power to fix their problems. Palpatine knew of a way to get the republic free of corruption, so he went about forming his empire. And like i keep saying, it resulted in peace until the rebel alliance, which was actually a very small minority in the galaxy, came about.)))


True, the terms of the Treaty of Versailles was the cause of the hardship Germany endured between the wars. Some commented that it was "not peace, but an armistice for 20 years." But make no mistake, Hitler was the cause of WWII, much like Palps was the cause for the hostilities throughout Star Wars. Peaceful negotiations regarding the Treaty would have been possible. As it was, the Allied nations turned a blind eye when Hitler breached many of the conditions. They did not want war. They were trying to appease him. They permitted him to rebuild Germany's military at a time when they could have crushed him. He choose the route he took because he did not seek peace; he sought power. The initial conditions necessary for his rise to start existed, and he took full advantage. And as he rose in power, he created new conditions which further facilited his rise. Perhaps this sums up the situation best: "And for a spell they sought to cling as if in desperation to the aged Marshall Hindenburg. Thereafter, mighty forces adrift; the void was open. And into that void after a pause there strode a maniac of ferocious genius. The repository and expression of the most virilent hatred that has ever corroded the human breast. Corporal Hitler." Or Darth Sidious. And like them, their Empires are rotten to the core.

Game. Set. Match. Championship. Bye.

 

take back my comment

 

Sorry but Darthmordor were you referring to plokoon in your post? or me?(i.e. the 3 of us are same person..i vomit)

 

I PM you the answer to that since it has no place on this board.

 

"And for a spell they sought to cling as if in desperation to the aged Marshall Hindenburg. Thereafter, mighty forces adrift; the void was open. And into that void after a pause there strode a maniac of ferocious genius. The repository and expression of the most virilent hatred that has ever corroded the human breast. Corporal Hitler."

Where did that melodramatic crap come from?

 

I'd like to know, too. That's a rather histrionic presentation.

 

I say the empire is evil.
They were responsible for the wiping out of the jedi and the destruction of an entire planet.

 

It is impossible to say the entire empire is evil. You could say Sidious is, but not the whole Empire.

 

Would you then argue that people who are complacent when evil actions take place are not evil for letting it happen to others?

Nuetrality causes evil actions/empires to go unpunished.


Ciou-See the Sig

 

The Empire, especially as portrayed in the movies, is evil. In a totalitarian government, one must judge the entirity of it by the actions that it takes based upon the commands of its leaders, such as Palpatine, Vader, and Tarkin. What they do is evil. The destruction of the Jedi Order and the annihilation of Alderann are both horrid acts, the latter even more so.

Don't go saying "well, the Jedi weren't really good guys..." because that is an untrue statement. They might have gotten arrogant in the years of peace, but do you see them destroying groups of people or harming innocents? I think not. Those who think that the Jedi are bad are obviously listening too much the propaganda of the Empire.