Is the Empire really evil?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Quixotic-Sith, Apr 8, 2005.

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  1. WLDB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2004
    star 4
    "Would you then argue that people who are complacent when evil actions take place are not evil for letting it happen to others?

    Nuetrality causes evil actions/empires to go unpunished."

    Yes. Theres lots of bad things like mass murders and genocide going on around the world as we speak, does that make our countries evil for doing nothing?
  2. Darth_IRS Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2005
    star 2
    "Where did that melodramatic crap come from?"


    Melodramatic? Well sure, sure I think most of Churchill?s writings had that element to them (this particular quote is from his 12 volume series on the Second World War ? I think it might be a 6 volume set on Amazon.com ? if you?re interested ? I haven?t read the majority of it so couldn?t give you an honest opinion on it). I think that it enabled him to clearly convey his thoughts in a manner that grabbed the reader?s attention. He could also be quite long winded and boring at times, but when he got it right I really don?t think it could be improved upon. (Let me just add that I?m a fan of his writing not of him; at least not to any great degree).

    Crap? I suppose when it comes to the style of writing people will have different opinions, so I could understand it if you think it?s a crap style. However, if you?re commenting on his ability to vividly describe his thoughts on the subject, than I think you are wrong. I?d challenge (good naturedly of course) you to produce something that is more effective.

    ?It is impossible to say the entire empire is evil. You could say Sidious is, but not the whole Empire.?

    Obviously, the Empire consists of an enormous amount of people, and to state that 100% of them are evil would most certainly prove false. Sorry to bring up WWII again, but allow me to do so one last time. I think you have to look at the Empire as being equivalent of the Third Reich, as opposed to comparing it to Germany as a whole. The population of Germany was not evil. Of course there were those who were, but on the whole its people were no different to any other country. Times were hard, and they made the mistake of turning to the wrong person. Hitler promised to improve the lives of Germans after years of economic hardship , while Sids promised security after years of war. The Third Reich however, was evil. Maybe not every single person in it was, but as a whole its purpose and actions were without question. And it?s the same with the Empire.

    It?s irrelevant whether or not the population of the galaxy approved of the Empire?s actions. Good vs. evil is not a popularity contest. If evil deeds are committed against the minority, they are still evil.

    You concede that Sids is evil. Well he is the brains of the Empire. He controls it. The Empire is an expression of his evil.

    ?Would you then argue that people who are complacent when evil actions take place are not evil for letting it happen to others??

    I would say that for the most part they are either weak willed or they feel that they would be unable to make a difference, . Look at Iraq. I?m sure the vast majority did not agree with Saddam, but felt helpless to oppose him.

    I like The_Flargg's post.
  3. The_Flargg Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2004
    star 2
    Although the complacent people are not evil as the ones committing the dark deed, they are responsible for not trying to do anything. The ones who do try to stop them are truly heroes. The "it's not our promblem" mentality is incorrect. If no one tries to stop evil, it will continue to grow and consume the world in darkness.

    Thanks for the complement, Darth_IRS
  4. Bacon164 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 7
    Palpatine is evil because he twisted the Republic into a dictatorship, because he will do anything to anybody in order to get what he wants. Though Palpatine may want to accomplish peace, he never had it:

    The Empire? It will never have peace. It was found on treachery and innocent blood!
  5. Darth_Arisin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2005
    star 1
    "Don't go saying "well, the Jedi weren't really good guys..." because that is an untrue statement. They might have gotten arrogant in the years of peace, but do you see them destroying groups of people or harming innocents?"

    Yes. They slaughtered the Sith because of differing philosophies. The Sith have just as much right to practice their stuff as the Jedi do.

    "Those who think that the Jedi are bad are obviously listening too much the propaganda of the Empire."

    Yes, because people can't have opinions of their own or anything. It must be the propoganda.

    "Palpatine is evil because he twisted the Republic into a dictatorship, because he will do anything to anybody in order to get what he wants. Though Palpatine may want to accomplish peace, he never had it:

    The Empire? It will never have peace. It was found on treachery and innocent blood!"

    The only reason there was no peace in the Empire (which isn't totally true) is because of the rebellion. The rebels started the war and threw the peace Palpatine created out the proverbial window.
  6. Bowen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 1999
    star 4
    I think this is an interesting thread because seriously, it's never really that clear that the Empire is truly terrible. I see that Vader is terrible, that the Emperor is terrible, but for all I know, the Empire preserves order and peace throughout the galaxy with their vast control and their system of laws. Certainly it seems Tatooine would be in better control under the Empire than it was in TPM...

    I think the Empire is probably more effective in the OT than the Republic is in the PT, to be honest. So hopefully the Rebel Alliance was aiming to restore the Republic as it was like 200 years earlier, not in the PT! Haha
  7. Jediknight_Wendy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 1
    ahh..this has been my favorite thread for awhile now hopefully we can keep it going there's so many great people posting in here :)
  8. Darth_IRS Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2005
    star 2
    "Although the complacent people are not evil as the ones committing the dark deed, they are responsible for not trying to do anything. The ones who do try to stop them are truly heroes."

    I don't agree that being complacent makes one evil, even if it is to a lesser extent than the ones actually committing the crimes. And while I agree that those who do try to stop them are truly heroes, I think it isn't matter of you either being a hero or evil. I believe that there has to be some ground in between. For example, what about people who if they had no dependents would join the rebel alliance, but feel that they main responsibility is to ensure that their children reach adulthood unharmed. Does this make them evil? I think not. You could argue that their main responsibility to their young ones is to provide them with freedom from the Empire, and you may very well be correct in saying that. However, the fact that their opinion is wrong does not make them evil.
  9. Darth_Arisin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2005
    star 1
    "However, the fact that their opinion is wrong does not make them evil."

    How can you say their opinion is wrong? By default, an opinion is never wrong simply because it's a personal belief. It may not be the same as your opinion or the next guy's opinion, but that doesn't make it wrong, it makes it different.
  10. Darth_IRS Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2005
    star 2
    Arisin,

    I did not say that their opinion was wrong. I said, "You could argue that their main responsibility to their young ones is to provide them with freedom from the Empire, and you may very well be correct in saying that. However, the fact that their opinion is wrong does not make them evil." So in other words I said that someone might argue that the parent(s) are wrong to put safety before freedom. If they could prove this to be correct (and in that case it would be a fact), it still does not make the parent(s) evil.
  11. DARTHMORDOR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2003
    star 4
    the sith were not entirly wiped out by the jedi. the sith wiped themselves out because they are too busy betraying each other and trying to gain total power. this is based on eu. betraying ones master and trying to kill anybody else that stands in your way ot total control of the galexey is once again not usually something a good person does. the jedi certinly did kill a lot of sith as well. but that was for the good of the people.

  12. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    But look at the movie Hero, in which the protagonists debated killing an aggressive warlord; the conclusion that arose was that the warlord had to live to prevent future war and death, despite means that were presented as evil - which gave rise to an entire nation state (China).
  13. DARTHMORDOR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2003
    star 4
    Think I may be the only one around here I still have not seen hero.

    so I really don't want to use that as a debating tool.

    based on the movies which is really all we have to go by the empire is evil. the empire is shown doing very evil things.

    based on our own morality (human, which is the audience). if you have a system of government which does not give a reason or a warning for destroying an entire world then the average citizen of the empire has no rights or privicy. at any time for any reason a person can be arrested and exicuted. this is an abuse of power. any government which can do this is not automaticly couropt but is far too easly abused. it gives a police sargent or even just a patrol man the right to execute somebody on the street with witnesses and say "hay we were looking for him" wheres the proof. evidence, accusation, etc.
    this is an unfair government wcich lacks a system of checks and balence. which means the people in authorty have nobody watching. there is an old saying and it pertains directly to this form of government and its rulers no matter how minor their role.

    absoulte power corrupts absoutly.
  14. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    A quick summary-

    There are many warring regions within China, but one warlord, through brutal means, has been gradually defeating the others, creating one land under his rule. Several warriors meet to discuss this and formulate a plan; martial arts ensues throughout the telling of the story. Eventually one of them gets close enough to kill the warlord, until he realizes the truth of what one of the other warriors said: the warlord, despite his iron fist and despotic manner, is the best chance for an end to war and a lasting peace in the country.
  15. DARTHMORDOR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2003
    star 4
    but was he a good ruler, how did he treat his people. he started wars but he was unifying the land. king arther was a warlord but he ruled fairly.
  16. Darth_IRS Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2005
    star 2
    Were there many warring factions in the Republic that without Sids intervention would have posed a threat? Prior to Sids involvement the Jedi seemed most capable of maintaining order among the members of the Republic. In TPM the Viceroy nearly **** himself when he found out 2 Jedi had arrived.

    NP edit: Language.
  17. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    You're going to want to edit that last bit - past tense profanity is still profanity.

    The Republic is portrayed as decadent and decaying in the PT (GL's words), and hence the believability of the Separatist movement (yes, they were manipulated by Palps, too, but that's not public knowledge). Internal strife and management by bureaucracy (even in the Valorum era) demonstrate that the whole thing was on the verge of collapse, something even the Jedi might not have been able to handle (cf. Mace's little conversaton with Yoda about revealing their weakness).
  18. Darth_IRS Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2005
    star 2
    But I thought that the fact that their ability to use the Force had deminished BECAUSE of Sids and the dark side. If those were not present, their ability would be unchanged. I'm not saying the Republic was perfect. What democracy is? But if Sids had not been present surely they would have been able to resolve any severe problems without having to resort to becoming an empire ruled by a dictator. If the Republic desires security by all means create a clone army, but one that acts on the will of the people, not one man who answers to nobody.

    P.S. Sorry about the language. Didn't realize it was that bad.
  19. The_Flargg Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2004
    star 2
    Yes. They slaughtered the Sith because of differing philosophies. The Sith have just as much right to practice their stuff as the Jedi do. -Darth Asirin

    One is allowed to practice their philosophy as long as it does not involve the harming of others. The sith cheat, lie, and start wars to get what they want. Are you saying that the US should not fight terrorists that will kill innocents to prove their point? Is that philosophy protected?

    Darth IRS-

    I did not mean that the complacent ones are evil, simply that they are not innocent.

    Strilo edit: I believe I've asked several times that current politics not be brought into this...
  20. plokoon_da_sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2005
    star 1
    ---One is allowed to practice their philosophy as long as it does not involve the harming of others. The sith cheat, lie, and start wars to get what they want. Are you saying that the US should not fight terrorists that will kill innocents to prove their point? Is that philosophy protected?---

    You know, many people see the U.S. as terrorists also. We invaded a country that had nothing to do with the terrorist attack, and we've killed many innocents to prove our point of being superior. I'm not anti-U.S. by any means, I'm only saying that your point may be seen the opposite way by some people.

    Strilo edit: Same here....
  21. severian28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2004
    star 5
    Its spelled out right there in the scroll of ANH - the Evil Galactic Empire. Theres no objectivity or interpretation about it.
  22. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    But again, we're only told it's evil. What have we really seen about the entity as a whole that makes it evil?
  23. Deeysew Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2005
    star 4
    Yeah, it looks like an efficiently run government to me. I can learn to live with this 20y gap, but... not knowing exactly how 'dark' are they is going to make me feel like Padme being stared at by Anakin.
  24. The_Flargg Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2004
    star 2
    I did not say the the US w does not act in some ways that could be considered terrorist, it was just an example. The Jedi are like a perfect country: they help others and ask for nothing in return. Not bringing in current polotics, but I'm not sure the US currently fits that category. How about "some nation that counters terrorists and does not occupy and or invade other countries based on unjustified reasons."?
    Does that work? Think if Switzerland was nuetral in wars, but fought against terrorists. Or something.

    Now that I think about it, though, the Jedi, by the time of the Clone War, are degrading. They should not have stepped into such a war until it was endagering innocent civilians, like during something that's kind of a spoiler, so I won't post it.

    Strilo edit: See above warning.
  25. revanslostaprentice Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 15, 2005
    dont forget they destroyed allderan.
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